You are misunderstanding the main idea behind the whole system. It is fork-able. So people can always change things they personally find they don't like about it. You can not have anything where everybody has to do. Because those who don't agree have all the technological and legal right to ignore you and do what they want instead. And this is the point with libre platforms ( or libre software in general ).

Whatever solution we find needs to take this fundamental thing into consideration.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sorry, I don't see how what you are talking about relates to my comment. At all.

I am not saying that people should be forced to pay, at least no that they need to pay to any specific admin. What I am saying is that we should stop to hand wave the total operational cost of an instance. Keeping the servers running, developing fixes and improvements to the software, dealing with moderation issues... these are all costs that need to be covered by someone.

Some people are willing to do all this work just to avoid "paying" someone else, but they end up paying with their own labor, their own server, their own time. If they are willing to do all of this, good for them. But for the majority of people who are simply looking for a social media alternative that is more ethical, it will be better for them (and everyone else) if they just go on to contribute with direct financial support and give a a few bucks every month.

[–] blenderdumbass@lm.madiator.cloud 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We need to make it easy to check the financial health of an instance. And things like costs and money made from donations should be visible, and rendered as progress bars or charts. So people would know when and to whom to donate.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

These things would be good but they wouldn't change the general incentive. There are still plenty of instances that are properly "funded" but still go under, lemm.ee being the most recent example. The problem is that these donation-funded instances are bound to hit a ceiling even when they hit their raising targets.

Mastodon instances that have good transparent reporting of their status (hachyderm, fosstodon, mastodon.social) are all receiving enough donations to support the hardware, but no one accounts for the labor of the admins and moderators and these are the real operational costs for the instances - and no one wants to pay for those.

[–] blenderdumbass@lm.madiator.cloud 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

no one accounts for the labor of the admins and moderators

These need to be part of the report. We have to fund not just hardware, but good life ( worthy of envy ) of those people. If their lives aren't worthy of envy now, the fediverse isn't healthy and we need to donate more.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

Let's make a quick case study?

Take a look at Mastodon's Patreon and their OpenCollective page. The largest project in the Fediverse gets 16500€/month from Patreon + $10k/year on OC, and that money is meant to support an instance with ~ 280 thousand active users (mastodon.social), another with 9.600 active users (mastodon.online) + the salary of ~5 developers. And we are not even counting the tens of moderators who are doing a lot of stressful work and have to deal with all sorts of issues that arise from being the largest instance out there.

An instance like mastodon.social should be pulling at least $1.5M/year in donations to make this work for the admins and moderators alone. Double that if we also used to fund the work of the developers. Which means that they would need an average donation of $4-$8 per user/year. Now, going by Jerry's number where he says around 4% of his users donate, this would mean that each donor would have to contribute $100-$200 every year.

And this is for the flagship instance, which has all their "please donate" narrative (deservedly) on their favor. Imagine how much harder would it be for other instances. Do you really think that we would be getting 4% of every instance contributing $100/year, or 8% contributing $50/year, or 20% contributing $20/year?

Now, let's compare with a different funding strategy, where we have independent service providers providing a service. Each one of them is working with different levels of investment, ROI expectations, etc. None of these instances would be getting hundreds of thousands of users (which makes operational costs per user higher), but at least their growth would only come if they have enough people willing to pay the asking price, and none of these users would be expected to pay $100-$200/year.

For example: my magical number with Communick is to get 10 thousand customers, each paying paying $29/year. That's $290k. Minus a reasonable salary for me ($180k/year), that's $110k. Minus my operational costs (let's say I can make things run with $25k/year) that's $85k. Minus my 20% pledge to the underlying Fediverse projects on the profits (20% of $85k is $17k). The remaining $68k would be used to reinvest in the business, hire people to help, etc.

Can you realistically make the case where someone with ~10k users could be getting $15k/month in donations? Not as an one-off kickstarter (like the Pixelfed devs did), but consistently enough that people can actually make long-term plans around this revenue, treat it like an actual job?

Do you think that all that is missing for the "open registration instances" (the .world servers, the infosec servers, fosstodon, hachyderm.io...) is "transparency"? All these people are already doing very good work and they are transparent about their costs. Do you think if the admins start also including other costs on the list, that the donations will keep coming forever?

[–] blenderdumbass@lm.madiator.cloud 1 points 16 minutes ago

I think that we need to have a panic making notification when some instance is below a comfortable ( of it's operator ) level of money. So that people could direct their money into stopping the panic. Basically I want automatic sense of urgency when and where it's needed. FSF does it well. When they are low on money they just make a progress bar on every page they operate, with a link to a donation page. It works amazingly for them, because it immediately creates a sort of soft panic about the health of the FSF.