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Newsom is a particularly shit person, correct. I would vote for him over any Republican, because while he's fucking awful, he is a particular type of awful that fucks over less people in general, and he would be the only real viable choice at that point.
At that point. Before that happens, he would've been through a butt-fucking-ton of primaries and caucuses and debates and what-fucking-have-you. He would've been the popular candidate by that point and solidified the coalitions around him. Because that's how you build up a powerbase for change.
I get not wanting to vote him, but you make concessions in a democracy. No one likes that part, but how fucking else do you work together? My hope is that Newsom or anyone else gets shoved into the dirt for abandoning people, be they trans, poor, immigrant, or any other minority. But if he doesn't? I hold my fucking nose and vote for the lesser evil.
Anyway, the point is you didn't list a third party, and that makes me think you are a fake progressive. Like, imagine saying "I won't vote" at the same time you say "Vote third party" and complaing the GOP would win. That's some escapist logic where you pretend you didn't help cause more issues because you didn't do anything. Never mind that you didn't say to caucus or primary to throw out bad Democrats. I'm really just waiting for the accelerationist foot to drop.
Fake progressive.
Get out of here with your No True Scotsman argument.
Newsom is already unpopular with Dems across the board. If he gets the nomination, that means the DNC pulled a Bernie fiasco again. And they’re not getting my vote under those conditions. AOC needs to be the candidate. That’s the only acceptable choice if progressivism is wanted.
IDGAF about advancing the interests of capitalist politicians so everyone can afford nice toys and luxury vacations. The people getting primaried who are actually for workers rights are still in the minority. We need multiple elections to make them the majority.
Until the party gets pulled left by more primaries in the future, then this is what we’re at. Voting for more of the same shit leads to more of the same shit.
Hold my nose for the compromise of queer rights. No thank you. Compromising on justice leads to no justice. I’ll vote blue when it serves actual progress.
Wait do you still think there was some conspiracy about Bernie overwhelmingly losing the primary? The conspiracy was that progressives and leftists didn't vote in the democratic primary. Democrats did, and they voted for (duh) the democratic candidate. Overwhelmingly. Because progressives and leftists didn't vote in the primary. Like by a two to one fuckin margin; it wasn't close at all. Blah blah superdelegate blah wouldn't have moved the needle an inch when Hilary got twice the votes Bernie did anyway. It wasn't conspiracy, and it is in fact why the democratic establishment doesn't cater much to leftists; because they don't fuckin vote.
Explain how not voting somehow makes the Democratic party more progressive, and I'll show you someone whose ultimate goal is violent revolution.
You can pretend that's not your goal, but there isn't another way if you refuse to compromise or coalition build. And if that's your goal, don't be a fucking coward about it and just admit that from the onset. And then while you're admitting that, you can also admit you don't really give a shit about queer people, or you would be following the plurality of them with voting Democratic.
If you set the bar for your leftism at where you are at, anyone left of you can say the same thing and refuse to vote for you and what you believe. Like, you get that, right? You get that anyone can then justify themselves and say what you believe isn't left enough and refuse to vote what you want, even if it would ultimately save more people.
There are a lot of people like hoppeduponcoffee who are being ostracized by both the Democrats and Republicans. Both parties are effectively communicating, "we don't need your votes to win", so it shouldn't be surprising when those ostracized groups take that message to heart.
These groups have very clearly communicated what it would take to get their support, so why isn't the Democratic party listening? It's not like they are asking for much. Protect queer rights. Stop funding genocide. Spend money on improving living conditions. It seems like it would be much easier to change the positions of a couple politicians than it would to convince millions of voters to go against their conscience.
Yeah that's when harm reduction should kick in with strategic voting but y'all seem hell-bent on accelerationism. You'd actively rather enable the worse option than practice harm reduction. Y'all ain't allies. Y'all just privileged.
I don't think that analysis of why Establishment Dems keep losing is advocacy for accelerationism. Most of the people who sit out of elections are not the kinds of people to post on the internet in political threads. If we want to reach the people on the who have become politically apathetic, the most effective method would be a top-down approach where the politicians and leadership change their positions and how they advertise the party.
We already know why these people don't vote. Yelling at them to vote hasn't worked for a decade, so we should try something else.
There literally is no other realistic option to take power without tea partying the Dems left. That's literally the only option that doesn't involve the nazis killing a fuckload more people. Anyone that doesn't understand this may as well be a fuckin MAGAt.
Fundamentally, I agree with that. Fundamentally, I am exactly on board with everything you and they have said. And fundamentally, that is not the hand that has been dealt in that situation.
Third parties cannot win a Presidential election in the US as the system currently stands. So, voting for a third party is either a nonvote or a vote for the defacto winner. Advocating for a third party candidate because your candidate lost the primaries is loser behavior. Because you cannot have your way, you're going home. And if that decision fucks over the very people you are pretending to protect, then you should feel just as culpable for that as anyone that did vote for that.
Fucking like it or not, trans people would be better under Newsom than any Republican. Fucking Kamala Harris did jackshit to defend trans kids, but she wouldn't be actively trying to harm them right now as President.
It is disgusting to me to pretend that not voting or voting third party is somehow stopping genocide or protecting queer people. It just isn't. All it does is make you feel better.
Yeah, hopefully we can do enough to change the Democratic Party so that they stop hemorrhaging voters. If we get to the 2028 presidential election and the Dem candidate is another neoliberal like Newsom, we're probably cooked. The past decade has shown that voters have become apathetic to the threat of, "Vote Dem or else you get the Republican", so hopefully, the Democratic Party doesn't run that losing strategy again.
I’m not saying don’t vote. I don’t where you got that out of my message. Absolutely vote. And don’t let a team sports mentality obstruct anyone from voting with their conscience.
I ultimately vote for policies, not for party. The Dems are not entitled to our votes. You want votes? Then enough people like me need to vote in primaries and there needs to be candidates with good platforms. Not the same pro-AIPAC, establishment corporate shills.
Why vote for a team when they have a bunch of individual players who are terrible? Vote 100%. In fact, I’m for compulsory voting. Especially in primaries. But the absolutist vote blue line mentality sucks. If someone is a rapist, promotes transphobia, supports genocide, supports corporate interests over workers rights, the I’m not voting for them if just because they’re on team blue.
I hate herd mentality. There’s nothing wrong with being opposed to something and not backing down on your moral stance. I wish more people did what is right, rather than what is expedient or convenient.
You want a compromise? Although he received AIPAC money, I’ll hold my nose and vote for Cooper in NC. At least he vetoed three attempts to restrict trans rights and made attempts to protect reproductive rights. This was all under the pressure of GOP dominance in the legislature. I’m not asking for perfect. But damn, you at least have to be good enough.
Guys like Newsom or Fetterman? Fuck them both. They’re opportunists. They support nothing noble.
How come you won't list a viable national-level third party?
Like, legitimately, you play this shell game where you say "Vote third party" or "Don't vote" (and you do say don't vote, let's not play coy), won't list any third parties to vote, and won't bother compromising if things don't go your way. It's mental gymnastics so you can avoid any culpability if things go poorly. Fucking just clap yourself on the back right now, you can be so happy that you didn't contribute to "blue fascism" or whatever the cultspeak is.
Good on you for hating herd mentality, along with fucking everyone else, you George Carlin-quoting individual you. Your unique snowflake melts the same as everyone else's.
Seriously, how do you plan to convert most of the Democratic voters to your mythical third party if Newsom (or anyone else not good enough for you) is the nominee? Because you cannot convert enough nonvoters to do that, you have to syphon those voters from the Democratic or Republican parties, and most of those Republicans aren't voting for your shit on a macro-level. Sorry, the political scientist in me just doesn't fucking believe in that one. If you aren't willing to conform to them, then why the absolute fuck would they be willing to conform to you?
I don’t care about what’s viable anymore.
If people have to constantly betray their values for politics, then what good is any of this?
Voting for status quo gets you… surprise! More status quo.
Getting out and participating in primaries is good. I make it a point to primary people with good platforms. I want to see more DSA-backed candidates end up on the Dem ticket. But if you’re being overwhelmed by shit people with shit votes, then what?
Populations have risen up and overturned their governments for far less. Perhaps it needs to head in that direction. Vulnerable groups have been suffering all along. Playing the same game just continues their suffering. Nothing gets done until the more privileged are suffering as well.
Trump is just a manifestation of what this country actually is. He’s like the Joker. Centrist dem voters are just as complicit for his rise to power.
Then you're not actually an ally, you're just another accelerationist.
Fucking there you go, buddy. Are we going to finally admit that you just want a violent revolution? Good job, if true.
Now, I do have to point out that voting third party and not voting are, indirectly, voting for the status quo, so you did sort of box yourself in with that zingy one-liner. Thanks for the agreement, though.
Anyway, surely you realize that vulnerable groups suffer the most in a revolution, right? So, if you don't really have them on board, then you are condemning many of them to death. Who is going to join you? Obviously, not liberals, since you refuse to negotiate with them. So... Uh... Do you think there's enough leftists to make up for that deficit? Because I fucking don't. I have trouble getting people I know in real life to understand that capitalism is the cause of most or all of their problems. But, if you can, let me know! I'll be there!
Where did I mention violence? People aren’t even willing to do a general strike, or a mass movement to reject all non-essential consumer spending, refusing to pay bills, rent, etc en masse. A violent revolution would never happen here unless people were actually starving to death.
Listen, if centrists want people to vote blue, or vote at all, then stop dismissing things like the enthusiasm gap, treating the left like a monolith, and trying to move towards economic populism while dismissing human rights under the framing of “cultural war” issues. I don’t mind if someone STFU about their position on things like trans issues and focusing on the economy, but actively coming out and saying trans issues are the problem is a whole other level of rejecting an increasingly influential and growing left wing base of potential voters.
That’s just sour grapes about failing to energize the voting base. Scapegoating.
Guys like Talarico trying to backpedal to woo conservative voters - that isn’t winning you votes, that’s just making you look weak, while losing more support than you’re gaining.
The Dem establishment is far too quick to assume left-wing policies like social justice are unpolular amongst the voting base. If the premise is that establishment Dems and independents care about the economy more than anything else, then there’s no harm in championing social justice. You’re retaining all of your potential voting base.
Establishment Centrist voters would be doing the same thing if DSA backed candidates took over the Dem leadership. They’d be refusing to vote for progressives, or at least threatening to do so. And they’d be getting equally pissed if you just tell them to suck it up and vote for the progressive candidate.
Watch and learn from any of the close upcoming races where actual progressives are running for office. Let’s see how many establishment blue line zealots cross the aisle. Or just refuse to vote at all.
It is truly sad that you believe these things. Especially because your logic explicitly makes coalition building impossible, and thus a revolution equally as impossible.
How the fuck do you expect to build a revolution when you can't make a concession or work with people you disagree with?
You are the definition of perfect being the enemy of good enough. I get that you want to save everyone right now. Cool. Great. Uh, one problem: FUCKING HOW??? You live in a fucking fairy tale if you think you can do these things. Your ideals kill the people you think you are standing up for, and it is shitty behaviors.
You aren't doing what you do to save queer people. You're not doing what you do to save minorities. You're not doing this for any noble reason.
You are doing this so that YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL BAD. You are doing it because the people that might die from your lack of doing anything won't weigh on your shoulders. And to that, I say, you should feel more of the remorse than those that tried to make things better. Because they tried.
But, you won't. The type of person who thinks voting third party or not voting will save people are the exact type of people who will say "It wasn't my fault." when people die, because they tried one thing that did jackshit.
You can have good and push for better a shitton easier than having perfect from the beginning.
The typical American voter bitches about injustice, while they continue to support injustice.
They fret about the children while eating açaí bowls and consuming cheap goods made with child slave labor.
They feel bad for exploited third-world people while booking luxury cruises to “safe,” all-inclusive resorts that exploit third world workers and benefit the rich.
They hate CEOs while participating in blantant consumerism.
They scream about animal welfare while consuming animal products three times a day.
They wax about social justice as long as it’s convenient for them to do so, and their political team wins by throwing minorities under the bus, or making them a secondary priority.
The two core values of the typical American voter are money and immediate gratification. In the words of that Skeletor-looking mf James Carville: “It’s duh economee, stoopid.”
Social justice and progressivism as long as I don’t have to personally sacrifice anything.
Morals that cease when my wallet shrinks, when I’m inconvenienced, or when the consumer happiness index shrinks. Social justice that becomes negotiable to stop orange man - even though orange man is just a reflection, a grotesque parody of the hypocritical, racist, queerphobic, materialistic, first-world lust of America. People hate when their inconsistencies are laid bare for all to see. They want to shut it back in the closet, rather than take five minutes for critical self-reflection.
Save your pointless lecture for someone else.