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The lone holdout juror in the trial of Lindsay Clancy has said he "didn't have any doubts" that she was criminally responsible for killing her three children.

"Based on all the physical evidence, key witnesses and what the prosecution presents, I thought it was enough proof that she knew exactly what she was doing and planned it," Michael Desronvil said in a statement to CBS News, the BBC's US partner.

The judge declared a mistrial on 4 September after the jury failed to reach a unanimous verdict following nearly 40 hours of deliberating.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

No, if he had any doubt at all then he should have voted with the rest of the jurors. That's how the law works. A jury is not a place to take a personal stand on a case.

On top of that, this juror lied about his criminal past in order to be selected for the jury. He should have been disqualified from the get go.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

There are different threshold of doubt that are allowed in various jurisdictions for various trials. Two terms are "beyond a reasonable boubt" and "the preponderance of evidence". The first accepts that you may still have doubts, having not seen the act with your own eyes and the fallibility of witnesses, the other that the balance tips in one direction or other. I don't know of any legal systems that require no doubt at all in the verdict.

All that said, I'd say that jury nullification indicates that the jury is absolutely the right place to take a personal stand, regardless of what the law says. If you have the right to hear all the evidence to indicate that an unjust law was broken, you should still be able to say, "Not guilty." You do in fact have that right in many places, including America. The fact lawyers try their best take sure it doesn't happen doesn't mean it's illegal. Note that unless everyone agrees, this will also result in a hung jury and a mistrial.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

We're not talking about various trials here, we're talking about one trial.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Then you should use the correct terms, or the terms relevant to this case and this topic. The fact of the matter is, the same legal standards that allow the striking down of an unjust law via jury nullification are the same ones that allow the abuse or rejection of a just law, which seems highly relevant to this particular case.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

To find Clancy guilty, jurors had to be unanimously convinced beyond reasonable doubt that she intentionally killed her children and that she did not do so as a result of postpartum psychosis, a rare and serious condition.

The jury - nine women and three men - considered a range of options including not guilty by reason of insanity, manslaughter and first-degree murder.

Several jurors have said following the mistrial being declared that the panel was ultimately divided 11-1 in favour of finding Clancy not criminally responsible.

Another juror told local CBS station WBZ-TV that most of the jurors had been "very firm in their stance" from the start and "the stand-alone juror was not the only one that was unwilling to see things from the other side".

But they added that because Desronvil would not "follow" his reasonable doubt nor offer logical reasoning for his position, they felt Clancy had not received a fair trial.

Under Massachusetts law, prosecutors had to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Clancy was criminally responsible for the jury to find her guilty. The defence did not have to prove her mental illness or lack of criminal responsibility.

He said the holdout "would not apply the law of reasonable doubt" as instructed by the judge, adding: "That's not right. And that's why I was upset."

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Jury nullification

Such verdicts are possible because a jury has an absolute right to return any verdict it chooses.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Yes and that's why it was a mistrial.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

No, if he had any doubt at all then he should have voted with the rest of the jurors. That's how the law works. A jury is not a place to take a personal stand on a case.

This you?

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Yes, I think that since he had stated reasonable doubt, he should have honored that and voted with the rest of the jurors.

Acknowledging he had the right to vote the way he did does not mean his decision is immune from criticism.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It's great that you have that opinion, and that is absolutely your right, however, that is not how the jury system works in America or many other countries, for what I and the designers of the system believe are very good reasons. One reason would be for not convicting people for breaking unjust laws, such as the Fugitive Slave Act. You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I'm having a conversation on a forum about the case. I'm not making any legal decisions that affect this case arguing with people online who want to strip women of their rights because Lyndsey Clancy killed her kids.

I'm not the only one who believes this juror had ulterior motives for the way he voted and that he ignored the law telling him that if he had reasonable doubt he shouldn't vote guilty.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 2 points 5 days ago (2 children)

And I don't disagree with any of that, and unless she is unfortunate enough to have two people like that slip through her lawyer's vetting process, it will have no long-term repercussions for her or society in general. On the other hand, having penalties for the decisions jurors make could be very far-reaching, quite possibly as far-reaching as stripping women of their rights.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago

having penalties for the decisions jurors make

I've never posited that jurors should have penalties for the decisions they make just because I disagree with a juror's decision. To be clear.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Anyone working to strip women of their rights based on this one case is doing so nefariously. This isn't a novel case, this isn't the first postpartum psychosis incident.

It's not Lindsey Clancy's fault if bad actors use her case to attack all women.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Well, then I guess we agree that at the very least this guy whose name I can't be bothered to remember or even look up is probably a shitty person and should be treated with disgust by everyone who meets him (probably the best reason to learn his name), and that if it didn't happen in this case another would have come along that the people trying to remove rights could use as a foil to their means.

That suggests to me that focusing on this loser, or the choice he made that was entirely in his right, will be nothing more than a red herring and it would be better to focus on this case being used as an excuse to remove women's rights.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (2 children)

it would be better to focus on this case being used as an excuse to remove women’s rights.

Yep, that's why I've posted about that very thing myself.

I also think that it is worthy to publicly push back on some of these sexist opinions that are rising from people conflating Lindsey Clancy with all women as if we are a monolith.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Absolutely fair. Hell, even Lemmy users are a pretty small, self-selected bunch and we aren't a monolith.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Hey thanks for having a back and forth with me that didn't devolve into name calling or personal digs. That was nice :)

[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Well, I'm a real, multi-faceted person, and I have my bad days, but I try to call out behavior and statements and avoid insults. Sometimes it's easier, and this was certainly one of them. Maybe we can argue/discuss again in the future. :D

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 days ago

Maybe we can argue/discuss again in the future.

I'd like that :)

[–] ageedizzle@sh.itjust.works -1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

women’s rights

What rights are at stake here? Women’s right to kill their toddlers?

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

He had no doubt she intentionally planned and strangled her three kids and was aware of what she was doing.

He may have doubted other things, but those didn't matter to him as much as that simple fact.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I trust the other jurors account of him admitting he had reasonable doubt over his retelling since he lied about his criminal history in order to get on the jury. It's even more damning to know that his criminal history includes domestic violence against his partner.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Good for you. I guess if you were on the jury you could have made your own choice.

This isn't even an allegation of bribery or coercion or corruption. It's just you not liking his decision as a juror doing exactly what a juror is supposed to do.

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You're misunderstanding how a jury works and how the law works.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)
[–] velma@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Thanks for continuing to show your misunderstanding of this entire case and trial.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Have they arrested the juror yet for making the decision you don't like?

[–] velma@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 days ago

Your ignorance is astounding.