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In high school, I was pro-death penalty. As part of a class on politics, I was randomly assigned the anti-death penalty position to research and debate on. I very quickly changed my opinion when I learned about the systemic racism involved. Now I'm an anarchist
That escalated randomly.
Death penalty carceral state - carceral state - state - ~~state~~
I think I'm starting to lean that way as well, I definitely understand society and norms are an illusion of structure, but I used to think it was good, productive, now I think that theater is hurting us.
When people stop working towards the structure and begin to exploit it instead...
yep exactly. I really am just wondering how much this is recent failures or has it just always been this fucked up and we were sold lies growing up.
I used to be anti-death. Now I am in the pro-death camp. This is because if a 2nd American War is concluded, we will be left with many living MAGA in our prisons. Do we really want to house members of ICE in our prisons for life, or allow them to once again walk the streets they terrorized? Members of the Trump Regime willfully given up their humanity in all the ways.
I cannot help but feel that executing them all will allow us to allocate more resources towards the people who matter: children, immigrants, and others who still have their humanity.
I feel that but also recoginize the inherent dark irony.
It is called the tolerance paradox. If you want a truly tolerant society you can't tolerate intolerance.
Yeah. It is problematic: On one paw, it is definitely evil to kill people. On the other, it is also evil to allow rapists, thieves, and murderers to have a high chance of doing so again.
It sucks. 😞
Conveniently they've been building tons of prisons that could be put to use for this
No. Those aren't fit for human habitation in the first place.
Don't worry, when you graduate high school you'll drop the anarchist bit, too.
Because grown ups are capitalists ?
Obviously, it varies, but a thing often happens where as you're exposed to the details of how the world works (in person) you start to realise the generations who came before and made it weren't total idiots.
Thinking it all makes sense isn't where that goes, but "a monopoly on the use of force is probably necessary" or "markets are more airtight than people think" can be.
Speak for yourself. All kinds of groups from conservatives to liberals to fascists to communists (although let's be honest, it's mostly the conservatives and liberals and 'enlightened centrists') love to arrogantly imply that their current worldview is the mature, rational conclusion that any intelligent person should reach in adulthood, and any other is just childish, naive, and poorly conceived. The people who do this aren't speaking to anything concrete about the world, they're just high on their own farts and confident in their ignorance.
And it's the anarchists who catch the bulk of the sneering insults from these types, who will often demonstrate their own ignorance as they dismiss them as naive and uninformed. You did this yourself by extolling the virtues of markets as a defense of capitalism, apparently not knowing that markets are not exclusive to capitalism.
Oh? Which ideology on that list the push for, then? I'm in the picture, I used to agree with OP on a lot and now I agree on less, but can you even guess how?
Nothing is being sold here, I literally just listed a couple anarchist things OP believes. Learning as you get older is a real phenomenon, at least for most people. And, there's no shortage of older people who have more complex, less absolute ideas about any number of things than they did when they were younger.
I used a different word on purpose, because capitalism doesn't really have a consistent definition. According to Hexbear, China isn't capitalist despite having all the associated features, for example.
Alright, I'll have a go at guessing your ideology since you asked. Given your status quo preference ("the generations before us aren't stupid and things are the way they are for a good reason"), you're not a radical so that leaves conservative, liberal, or centrist. Given you've implied that you used to have some anarchist beliefs it's unlikely you went from that to conservative, so most likely you're some flavor of liberal, like a social democrat. You're vaguely sympathetic to some socialist and anarchist ideas but think you're too smart to commit to them because the world is "just more complicated than that." Capitalist realism has pulled you back from becoming a radical as you've gotten older.
Actually, you pretty much nailed it, nice. TBF that makes it kind of a trick question, since it's not neatly in any of the categories.
Do you think the world isn't complicated? Even anarchists usually do. If anything, you see the argument that the world is too complicated to be reduced to numbers and laws.
I think the world is more complex than any individual person can possibly comprehend, but that doesn't make us incapable of moral judgement or unable to imagine radical alternatives to the status quo. Yes, things are the way they are now for a reason, but rarely a good reason. I see the appeal to complexity as a cognitive trap serving as a thought-terminating cliché, and it's the trap that a lot of social democrats have fallen into. It is easier to stick to what you know than to speculate about a world you've never experienced, but I promise you the latter is more fulfilling and a great antidote to cynicism.
I won't speak for you, but when I was a social democrat I was pretty miserable and cynical. I recommend the book Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher, as it is what snapped me out of being a social democrat, personally. That sent me into the world of radical politics and I found footing by reading David Graeber (The History Of Everything, Bullshit Jobs, etc.) which helped me put my thoughts into perspective and realize my beliefs had already been fairly anarchist for a while. I'm not an anti-realist like a lot of anarchists are, my worldview is still grounded in materialism, but I have become a bit more agnostic in that regard over time.
You're right, it is a thought terminating cliche for a lot of people. If you get rid of the thought terminating cliches and put in the work to understand, you open yourself up to all the ideologies, not just anarchism.
If you want to turn this around and sell something to me, fill that in with details. Anarchists have a way of pointing out things that seem terrible, but then when you ask how things should work instead, getting really vague.
On it's own that says nothing about the movement itself. But, when it's literally all you can find even looking hard at an old idea, it starts to seem like there's nothing there.
Doesn't "a bunch of other things have been tried, and they had X problem" count?
On policy specifically, that's usually the gist. There's been a lot of history, very little is original unless new technologies are involved, and even there it's uncommon (eg. tech monopolies are railroad monopolies).
You know, maybe I will. I'm pretty sure I did read Bullshit Jobs. Or maybe just the notes?
Nah, it's just that eventually you realize there is more to life that questioning your parents and wearing black.
Edit: Don't worry, you can still circle your As.
oh look, it's someone who doesn't know what anarchism is
I know what anarchism is and I think it a utopian thought experiment.
Like every single political ideology you rube
I mean, other ideologies, support them or hate them, have at least existed in the real world at a mass scale.
So you’re saying human civilization always operated under a hierarchical body politic without decentralized decision making?
Serious ahistorical claim.
By the way “anarchy” in the sense of childish movie plot stuff is not what any adherent of the ideology is about. Anarchy is a spectrum and set of guiding principles (like any political belief system), and one can argue that forms of what I might identify as anarchistic political structures have and do exist in many political systems. Just like socialism exists in neoconservative governments, and fascism in democracy ect…
Anarchism can run a small commune but not modern societies like China or the USA. Let real leftists build movements that actually succeed in reality and not at the scale of like a couple hundred people.
Name me another leftist ideology that is perfectly constructed and has achieved utopia on mass scale.
I’ll wait while you come up something specific. Until then I will use my ideology as a set of guiding principles towards a more equal society.
Thanks. Also, read theory if you are struggling the above. It helped me
I guarantee you that I’ve read more theory than you but also have the ability to understand the difference between fantasy and non fiction. Unfortunately, anarchists don’t have this ability. I actually really appreciate their utopian optimism. It’s cute.
Cool guy you are. Your “guarantee” isn’t worth the bits in your text given we don’t know each other - neither is your disrespect.
But hey keep feeling better than someone else you don’t know if that helps you.
I’m happy as is with my knowledge and political orientation. Was just trying to widen your lens - to understand why someone may support a political doctrine: anarchy, ghat comes from theory and practice which contributed to many positive changes across societies.
… also still waiting for your alternate frame
Let me guess, you use Linux?
what gave it away, the website I'm on or the posts I made?
I didn't even look at your post history. It's just that Linux users and defenders of Anarchism as a true system of power have a very narrow Venn diagram.
You're in wrong neighborhood pal lol
whatever. I'm not interested in discussing anything with someone this caustic. I didn't say "humanity must become anarchists" I said "you don't know what anarchy is"
And I'm not interested in having a conversation with someone who can't even pick a side of the fence to argue from. I hear the Libertarians are recruiting, maybe they are more your flavor.
I only became an anarchist in my 30s. Before that I was authleft.