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Being mtf or ftm trans is conforming to gender stereotypes with extra steps. Abolishing gender stereotypes and letting everyone express themselves however they want would be far better for society overall.
I don't mean that in a negative way and fully support respecting self identification because that has the best outcomes in the real world.
Tell me you never interact with trans people without telling me you never interact with trans people
You don't actually know that. You can identify as male, female, nonbinary, agender, genderfluid etc. all while conforming or not conforming to male or female gender stereotypes. One is intrinsic, the other extrinsic.
Sure, but if you're gonna claim that trans people having either binary gender identity is necessarily conformity to gender stereotypes, then you need to accept that a cis person being either a man or a woman is even more so.
So the thing is, deviating from the norm is always going to be a bigger thing that just going with the flow.
There are masculine women, feminine men, and a wide spectrum in between. Many drag queens are playing the role of exaggerated gender stereotypes without identifying as a woman outside their act. A woman wearing pants was a huge thing in the US in the last century and that was just about not needing to follow gender norms separate from self identification. Cis doesn't mean actively choosing to conform to gender stereotypes, it just means accepting the label society slapped on the person.
Yeah, and? All that is true of trans people, too.
I've also thought about that a bit. The way I see it, transgender people definitely are following local cultural terms. Not the ones that they are expected to follow, but still.
What's considered masculine or feminine isn't standard across different cultural contexts either. For example, wearing skirts or pink aren't exclusively feminine. In a western context they currently are, so that's why western MTFs are currently inclined to wear those.
However, that wasn't always the case. If the same person had been born a few centuries ago, pink would not have meant the same thing, and they they would have probably felt differently about that color. Also, what westerners would consider a skirt these days, can be a masculine or gender neutral piece of clothing in other cultures. Even today, there are place where mean wear something that westerners would call a skirt.
Not all mtfs wear skirts or conform to gender stereotypes. In my case it's more about feeling dysphoria with my body/hormones and wanting to change that (and then presenting in a way that looks normal for my gender in the society I happen to be in), but I'm also nonbinary, so there's that.
Yeah, I just brought up the skirts because they sit in a particularly strange cultural niche. Nail polish, specific hairstyles, and high heels are currently considered feminine, but I couldn't think of how to use any of them in an interesting example.
Just as you said, people usually want to look normal. In order to do that that, they'll gravitate towards whatever cultural gender norm they consider most fitting for them. Obviously, there's variety in this matter, just like there is in everything else. There are always exceptions to whatever generalizations I make.
Non-binary people are an interesting group though. Don't know any IRL, but I've been watching a few YT videos made by them. In this biased sample, they don't seem to even want to fit any box. Some wear neutral clothes, some prefer bright colors. Seems like a diverse group to me. How about you then?
I fall under the nonbinary umbrella as I used to be genderfluid - my gender would change over time between feminine, agender, and masculine, and now it's just genderflux as I oscillate between agender (no gender identity) and varying levels of femininity. (I plot it on a scale where G1=fully masculine, G5=agender, and G10=fully feminine. I used to go between G4 and G10 (mostly around G5-7), but recently it's been more between G5 to G10 (with most of the time between G6-8) - so I've gotten more feminine over time.) And this is to do with my internal identity, mostly defined by levels of dysphoria/euphoria and how I feel about my body, not how I present.
I present mostly fairly unambiguously feminine though, maybe slightly tomboyish/gender neutral as I generally wear T shirts and jeans and stuff as opposed to say dresses. I do paint my nails, style my hair, wear makeup
My controversial opinion is that if everyone has the right to self identification, I have the right to reject that identification. I am under neither logical nor moral obligation to accept another person's beliefs about themselves or the world. Keep in mind I firmly assert that all people deserve to be treated with kindness and respect, I am making a descriptive not a normative statement. This is strictly a question of retaining the right to epistemological determination, "self identification" being based on that same exact fundamental premise.
I don't fully understand. Can you give a concrete example? Like you meet someone who seems like a woman to you, they say they're a man, and you're like, "no, no, you're a woman, I reject your self identification of being a man"?
I don't see you as less of a person, I don't see you as a bother, I don't see you as challenging to my views or, a shock at all, really.
I guess the cold hard truth is that I just don't care.
If you wear your gender as your first, most outstanding personality trait, it doesn't speak much for the rest of you.
Do I care if you keep it up, don't stop and tell everyone you know? Have at it.
It's just not my business. It's not important in the grand scheme of whether or not you're an asshole. Your shoe size is more indicative of who you are, to me, anyway.
This sounds similar to the "I just don't see race" perspective.
Do you also just not see race?
If they're different, what differentiates these topics in your thinking?
I recognize the concepts of feminine and masculine and the blends of both, but I suppose that just doesn't tell me a lot about who you are, how you are, what your interests are or your life.
I could ponder stereotypes, get an idea for who you are based on telling me you're trans, but listen to how that sounds.
Would you want me to have an idea about you from one word, without even knowing you?
Thank you for your reply.
I appreciate that you recognize that masculinity and femininity are concepts, and that these can co-exist and blend within many people's experiences.
Unfortunately, the "I don't care" position that you've described does still sound to me like the practice of "colorblindess." For instance, it sounds like you are describing a similar false dichotomy; where you are saying, broadly, that either you "just don't care" about a person's experience of their identity features; or that, if you do care about a person's experience of their identity features, then you would be forced to use that information to "ponder stereotypes."
What about a third option? Could you see people as individuals rather than stereotypes; while also acknowledging that our experiences are affected by the contexts of our lives; including multiple layers of relationships with ourselves, each other, and broader societal forces?
There might be this third path, like you are saying, but some people still might not care even about that. Like, what if someone just genuinely does not care at all about any of this stuff? Is that wrong? Are we obligated to care?
Huh. I was going to write my own reply but I will defer to your argument, it perfectly encapsulates how I see it too, no notes.
Do you just never use gendered language in real life?
I don't think about it. I don't understand the question, honestly. I see people as men or women, short or tall, blue eyed or brown eyed, they come they go. It's not important to me how they see themselves, it doesn't interfere with my daily business or interactions with people, I try my best to treat everybody with respect and mind my own business. They can think they're the Queen of England for all I care.
That's a fair perspective.
I appreciate your acknowledgement that all people have the right to their own self-determination; and I appreciate your affirmation that all people deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.
I would also ask, though, when you assert your right to your own evaluation of another person, do you also practice awareness that it is fundamentally your interpretation, and that your interpretation may be factually inaccurate?
Do you say, "My experience is that I think that person is a man," or do you say, "I declare based on my observations that I know that that person is a man" ?
Most of the time, we have no way of knowing what sex organs someone has, regardless of the expression of their outward appearance. It's true that we may often recognize certain characteristics that lead to familiar assumptions, but in almost all scenarios we are still either making our own guesses about someone else, or we are choosing to believe that they are whoever they say they are.
Also, when considering intersex people and other variations in sexual development, even if we guess correctly about the sex organs or characteristics that someone may have been born with, we may still be wrong about the person's underlying genetic make up or hormone balances.
I guess I wonder, when you hold your right to determine your own evaluation of another person, is your thinking flexible enough that you can hold your own assumptions lightly?