DragonWasabi

joined 2 years ago
 

And not an ethical or philosophical discussion obviously - I mean they're talking about which animal flesh they like more, which dishes "need it", how they like to cook "it", etc.

Are you silent and just wait for the conversation to move onto something else? Do you offer a comment on the topic? Do you say something entirely different to try to change the subject? Do you do something else to distract yourself or because you're bored or annoyed/upset/disturbed by it? Do you go into another room or leave if you can?

In these moments it can be incredibly awkward, I would imagine even if you aren't an ethical vegan, maybe even vegetarians who just don't like flesh by taste preference or are grossed out by it. There's nothing to add (presuming you don't want to go against the grain of the group and accidentally start an argument and trigger everyone by making a comment expressing your own choices or views or anything).

It's kind of like if everyone is talking about their favorite hockey players when you have no knowledge or interest in hockey, except if the hockey players were also all convicted sex offenders and the conversation disturbed you immensely.

We're socially expected to be silent about our views on animal exploitation (or flesh consumption) and not even state our "preferences" or choices too loudly, but then everyone else is socially accepted to say whatever they want about the subject at any time and in any manner (including defending animal exploitation and criticizing vegans). This creates an untenable imbalance where we just have to shut up and hold our tongue when people are talking about things that make us uncomfortable or even offended.

But in those settings, but it must be awkward for them too, I imagine (unless they're trying deliberately to make the vegan uncomfortable, which does happen a lot - but most people probably don't want to, I think). It's weird for everyone. What do you do?

 

Anyone noticed this? Do people only want to listen to people who are hypocritical like them because it makes them feel less insecure or judged?

 

Not sure if he's reading way more into it than the writer/director intended, but it's a cool take anyway. Sorry for the political element, not sure if it's appropriate here

 

Not sure if he's reading way more into it than the writer/director intended, but it's a cool take anyway. Sorry for the political element, not sure if it's appropriate here

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc -4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'm recognizing how many of the behaviors we see in adults are reflective of newer, upgraded forms of the same behavjor patterns of babies, despite adults often thinking of themselves as serious and mature. It's funny to think of adults as grown babies sometimes.

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 2 points 1 year ago

I appreciate and respect all your points and largely agree. For the record I won't be buying a Tesla, I just thought it was an interesting discussion. I do want to comment on the "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" aphorism/maxim, in a way that I think supports your argument or at least the logic underlying it.

Firstly, even if it is the case that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, that doesn't appear to suggest that there can't possibly be varying degrees of morality of different forms of consumption under capitalism. In other words, even if all consumption under capitalism is unethical, there can still be more ethical (or less unethical) and less ethical (or more unethical) consumption under capitalism, at least in theory. Not all consumption under capitalism is necessarily ethically identical or equivalent.

If it were the case that all consumption under capitalism was equal in moral wrongness or moral weight, with no variation, then it seems to follow that supporting a Tesla would be no worse or better than supporting any other vehicle (or product/service for that matter). I don't think this is true, and I think your point demonstrates that it isn't true as well. It's possible that it would be worse than supporting other things, and there could also be things that are worse than supporting a Tesla in theory.

This is important not just for the sake of a semantic technicality, but because people (consumers) frequently use the "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" phrase to deny any moral responsibility for their actions related to consumption. I think that precisely because we do have differing choices available to us (within the flawed capitalistic system), which are not necessarily morally equal (even if they are all immoral, just to different degrees or in different ways), and some consumption decisions are more unethical than others, we do have moral responsibility to choose the least unethical (or "most ethical") options that we can realistically access.

To suggest that "because all things are bad, it doesn't matter what we do" (not that you're saying this, quite the opposite), would be somewhat evoking an appeal to futility and nirvana fallacy; because nothing is perfect, there is no difference between any solution/option and any effort to reduce harm is invalid. And I think this is the mentality that people are embodying when they use the no ethical consumption under capitalism line to justify their morally questionable decisions.

Secondly, and somewhat less importantly depending on intended meaning behind the phrase, I'm not certain that there is no such thing as ethical consumption under a capitalist rule in technical terms, as despite the inherent ethical problems with capitalism, I don't think it's really morally reasonable to expect someone to do something they can't physically/possibly do, or which would involve self-sacrifice. If there were truly no ethical consumption under capitalism, then if someone wanted to be perfectly ethical, the only morally permissible option would be to unalive themself (which comes with other moral consequences). So it's basically a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, which doesn't quite sit well with me. I appreciate the sentiment behind the saying, as it alludes to the inherent & inescapable problems with capitalism (which can only be addressed by changing the system entirely), but I think it makes sense that ought implies can (Kant's ethical formula whereby if something is morally obligated to do or an action is one's moral duty to carry out (or refrain from doing, if it's in reference to negative duties), then it must be within a moral agent's ability to do so - or I would add, within the scope of generally intuitive reasonability as an expectation for them to do, since it might be technically possible for them to do something if it involved significantly harming or compromising their own life, but that expectation or imposition on them would violate their own rights to self preservation, autonomy, etc). In other words, if someone is truly doing everything they can within reason or practicability to avoid making unethical consumption choices, or to make the least unethical choices available to them in a broken system that they didn't design themself or choose to be born into, then in my book, they are being ethical as a moral agent, despite the unethical capitalist system they live in. But we should all do what we can to help reform it additionally where possible.

I hope this makes sense & wasn't too convoluted, pedantic or annoying :)

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The app is also literally called Little Red Book as an alternative name

 

Sorry if this is controversial, but I've heard some people saying (title) and that it's ironic that after the American government tried so hard to ban the little red book of the cultural revolution from being in everyone's pockets, now it is in everyone's pockets again in the form of an app on their phones.

I'm sure the first thing people will say is, it's a social media app similar to TikTok, which is why Americans are flocking to it in the wake of (and in anticipation of) TikTok's ban for reasons related to CCP interference. It's not literally the writings of Mao Zedong, in any way. But I think it's more of a symbolic idea of what it represents. It's also very interesting that the first choice of an app to replace TikTok was one that seems even more closely associated with China than TikTok is; I wonder if Red Note actually takes off in America that it will be banned as well otherwise it may have just replaced the perceived problem with another one.

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Lol, couldn't I be either and have it still be a genuine question? I haven't been diagnosed with autism, but I could have it, and I've also been called a pedant at times. All told, the question is genuine all the same.

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 0 points 1 year ago

Fair enough, just thought we were having an interesting convo. I was looking forward to hearing your insights, which I appreciate.

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What is A in this case (that which is definitively known)? The fact one has a subjective experience of some kind of perceived reality and in this reality we see other people that tell us they're real and say they have separate minds to us? And then is B the proposition "reality is real to a degree insofar as other minds that appear to exist do indeed exist and are sentient and hold opinions"? Because I agree A doesn't necessarily entail B in that case, it is something that I'm assuming for sake of argument as a basis for further reasoning.

But if we presuppose both A and B are true (let's call them AB), then it seems like the information and observed, even anecdotal/firsthand experience we can obtain from reality (and especially if we trust secondhand sources, but even if not) appears to (uncertainly) create the grounds for a case to be made that, using reasoning and empirical observations (a combination of a priori and a posteriori), we can deduce that if a large number of people care about a wide variety of diverse interests (which seems to be deducible by AB + an average experience of life where you meet a significant number of people who aren't lying to you (=C)), then there is a high likelihood of at least one of them caring about a given subject or phenomenon?

So this is assuming some things, such as A (apparently known, so maybe not assumed), in addition to B & C, but if ABC, then is it really an invalid form of reasoning to conclude or speculate that D (someone cares) is likely? Is any form of argument which isn't entirely certain unequivocally invalid? Because then you can't really consider anything valid (aside from A, or things which are known beyond a shadow of doubt, even if you acknowledge their uncertainty), right? This is why certain elements of Descartes' philosophy seem absurd to me... in addition to the intuitively contradictory idea that "All that we can know is I think therefore I am, but also God exists and is an evil demon that has created a false reality(?)"...

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Interesting. Could you possibly elaborate?

[–] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sean cares 🥺

 

It seems like if the statement is literal, then it's self-disproving, since the person cares enough to say that, and the person who they were saying that to cared enough to say whatever they said or did prior. Also the likelihood of no one (as in, no human I guess?) caring about what they had to say seems very low, and chances are a large number of other people probably would care, too.

If the statement isn't literal but more rhetorical, then I'm not sure what it means, but I suspect it basically just means "I don't care" (as in the person who says "No one cares" doesn't care themself and wants to express this in a way that seeks to hold more weight by asserting that all other people feel the same sentiment as them, even though arguably they demonstrably care somewhat if they went out of their way to say that, I guess depending on effort required, or perhaps didn't care originally but then developed some degree of care as a result of the annoyance they felt at being exposed to something)... or maybe it just means "I don't like what you said/did" or "I'm annoyed by you"... alternatively it could mean "I think you're stupid/worthless", "I disagree with you" or "I don't want you to speak/speak about this again", or similar.

Anyhow, what is the most appropriate way to respond to this? It seems like an emotionally charged statement that warrants, perhaps being completely ignored, or maybe a measured response seeking to find some understanding or common ground, though a witty retort could be appropriate if respectful (I don't believe 2 wrongs make a right, unless the first wrong somewhat necessitates the second, if that makes sense). That said, I'm open to hearing any kind of replies that might be given, regardless of how cordial/civil (or not) they are.

 

Obviously it was a good thing that it was banned, but I'm just wondering if it would technically be considered authoritarian.

As in, is any law that restricts people's freedom to do something (yes, even if it's done to also free other people from oppression as in that case, since it technically restricts the slave owner's freedom to own slaves), considered authoritarian, even if at the time that the law is passed, it's only a small section of people that are still wanting to do those things and forcibly having their legal ability to do them revoked?

Or would it only be considered authoritarian if a large part of society had their ability to do a particular thing taken away from them forcibly?

 

Have we really become so unempathetic as a society that the act of putting yourself in others' shoes is unbelievable to the point that people assume you must be part of the group you're defending? So I often see people being unfairly discriminatory and mean to certain types, attributes or qualities of people, which I know some would be offended and hurt by. But whenever I stick up for them, I get comments like this: "Tell me you're x without telling me you're x". "F*** off, x". A good example is gay people or trans people. I get heavily criticised for defending them and people immediately assume that I'm gay or trans just because I'm expressing that I empathise with how they're treated in society and think people should be kinder toward them. There are lots of other examples but I'm worried I'll be antagonised here just by saying them, so I picked some slightly more socially acceptable ones (yes there are some far less socially acceptable things than LGBT these days, in my experience, despite the rampant LGBTphobia).

 

They're also both very witty shows, and sort of a "joke a second" rather than joke a minute.. constantly hilarious and with so many little funny details packed in everywhere. Missing a show like this.

 

The word can have swearing but not genderisation which might be offensive (mother) nor allusions to sexual dominance (motherfucker). Nor, other possibly offensive connotations. It seems that the word is commonplace and people won't stop using it, so an alternative to the word may be useful. But the problem with alternatives, is that people might not use them unless they carry a meaning that's attention grabbing in some way, and when it comes to this word it needs to be able to be used in either a serious (non-funny) or comedic way.

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