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I get the argument in favour for that, but it doesn't change the fact that this is rigging elections. It only makes the US more of a functioning democracy again (which it isn't currently) if that step helps in getting both sides to agree to outlaw election rigging by gerrymandering. I would not hold my breath.
I agree that it could lead to finally banning gerrymandering entirely, but I don't consider it rigging. It's legal, so it's just a form of Hard Ball, and the Dems wouldn't be doing it if MAGA hadn't done it first.
It's about time the Dems started fighting fire with fire.
Yes, it is legal, election rigging via gerramandering is legal in the US. That's the problem. Fighting rigging with rigging, can reestablish a balance, but it doesn't make the system more democratic or elections fair.
The problem is that election rigging in general and gerrymandering in specific is removing power from the electorate, transferring it to the current party (or parties) in power, making it increasingly harder for those in power to become overthrown by election. Systems that work that way have a name btw.
I still wouldn't call it rigging, because it IS legal. It's more like influencing in a legal manner.
Is it fair? No, but it's legal, so it's NOT rigging, by definition. It's the same with the Electoral College. There are ways to manipulate it, and they aren't specifically illegal, so it's not rigging.
Make gerrymandering and Electoral College illegal, and then manipulating them would be rigging.
It is functionally election manipulation, making it much harder for election based overthrow of government, just out in the open and legal. If that is enough for you to not call it rigging, so be it. It doesn't change what it is and what it does. Remove voting power from the electorate transferring it to the party/parties currently in power.
I criticise what it is and what it does, not the terminology. The issue is that this is not the only major deficiency in the US election system. Another one being that effective limitless bribing of parties, via election campaigns has been legalised as well. Yes, you might also come in and say, because it is legal it is not bribing. I don't care. It functionally is, legally, call it whatever you like.
On top of that, the Electoral College almost seems benign as it is different, even though it is highly problematic as well. It is as such not changing, ie manipulating the outcome of the election in a dynamic matter, depending on who was previously in power in the state. It is my understanding, that while the voter will could be ignored, it is still the case that the electoral college is basically just doing what the state level results would suggest.
If you add it all up, especially with the changes in the recent year, I think the US is best described as authoritarian democracy. Overthrow of government by election is still possible but increasingly harder to achieve, free and fair elections are compromised, media increasingly affected by Gleichschaltung, the election bureaucracy is increasingly hollowed out and replaced by people under control by the government, instead of people trying to follow the process in a proper manner. Add to that, that even if the other party in this two party state were to win, also their candidate would stand no chance without tapping into the near limitless support from company fundings (and nothing in life is free).
There has been a lot of MAGA discussion about gaming the Electoral College as well, like splitting a state's votes between parties. Its the next frontier after gerrymandering, although the gerrymandering thing hasn't worked out so well for them this time, so maybe they'll reconsider messing with the Electoral College.
Ah, who am I kidding? These MAGA morons never learn from their mistakes, they just blame somebody else, and keep being stupid.
Sure. The Electoral College is certainly a weak point as well, but giving all those other gaping weak points, reaching all the way up to the top of the judiciary, I'd be surprised if they'd even need to exploit the Electoral College. But never say never.
They aren't driven by Need. If they have the opportunity to exploit something, they HAVE to do it, they can't resist. It's a compulsion.
I was thinking about this the other day and if you're gonna gerrymander a state, having a state-wide vote about it first makes it a bit more fair.
Also, MAGA is trying to gerrymander states so they don't have ANY Democratic representation, just Red districts, even if they have a Democrat population approaching 50%. They are deliberately denying representation to nearly half their state.
Democrats tried to ban gerrymandering for the last decade. Republicans have ALWAYS voted against it.
They know they lose when they don't cheat and they are upset Democrats are not playing nice anymore.
also they cant gerrymander too hard, or they affect thier states republican strongholds. thats why they add in VOTER Suppression to top it off.
Oh but it's fine when you do it, Red? Fuck you, go ~~pound~~ eat sand.
*fuck
Their crocodile tears have been delicious.
Totally on board with outlawing this shit entirely, by the way, but also totally over getting punched in the groin by the people who go low.
It's also a great way of pressuring Republican politicians into actually banning it.
"You don't like us playing by the rules you wanted? Help us change the rules then!"
They'll only accept losing the power to gerrymander if it hurts Democrats more than Republicans.
The funny part is where you think Republicans would abide by their own ban, if not outright reverse it, the second they have a chance to reverse power.
that’s an easy solve though…
it’s pretty easy to put a number to how gerrymandered a region is: ungerrymandered means that if you were to look at all the votes in the state without districts that’s your ideal ratio… if you then add districts and that ratio is different, it’s perhaps gerrymandered
so if the goal is to stop gerrymandering, you get a bunch of states to sign some interstate compact that measures gerrymandering across the country and says any state that’s part of the compact will (perhaps in the next election, perhaps based on projections for the current voting maps based on prior voting behaviour) gerrymander to an equal or greater degree to offset or punish gerrymandering overall… ie you can gerrymander your state but at best it’ll mean nothing when it comes to the ratio of votes
We'll have to do it more. There's a reason they could only gerrymander 5 more seats into a state the size of Texas, and that's because Texas was and is already gerrymandered to shit.
They still don't want a ban because even after a few high profile Democrat gerrymanders, Republicans still benefit more.
I like how apparently a partisan judge is trying to block this now.
Texas: Fuck voters, we're doing it without them.
CA/VA: Let's defer to the voters as we should. Ok, they voted for it.
Partisan Hack Judge: Wait, no, not like that.
We got a saying where I'm from. "Don't hate the player, hate the game."
If only someone would make a law that prevents this. Surely conservatives would never oppose a law like that?
It gets tiring, pretending they care about hypocrisy. They truly don't.
I honestly think they revel in it. They love the fact that they can force rules to apply to you and then feel powerful when they break them when it suits their goals.
Exactly that. It's a power play. They do not experience shame.
There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you.' Fool me—you can't get fooled again.
They control all 3 branches of the federal government, so I warmly welcome them to pass a law or ruling that makes partisan gerrymandering illegal.
If fighting fire with fire is what's needed to make them feel like it's a problem, then so be it.
they cant, thats why they tried to pass the voter suppression bill, Save act.
is there any actual benefit to having it subdivided at all in the first place? it just seems like another thing to fight over and undermine the value of particular voters.
Theoretically you get hyperspecific representatives. Maybe a district in the west would want to vote differently than a district in the east. Theoretically your vote is still just as valuable and you're voting with your geographic peers.
In reality it just gets optimized for party votes and you end up with this
I'm in Texas. The far end of my district is over 400 miles away... And my district isn't even the worst example.
Because it makes sense to have local districts represented in the state legislature?
The sort of idea of it is/was to give farmers and people living in rural i.e. less population dense areas a “fair” amount of voting power compared to cities. The idea does make sense to some extent, as city dwellers often make up a majority of the population, and are unlikely to have the farmers best interests in mind, which could be problematic for everyone. But this already shaky line of reasoning has been abused pretty much since its inception by the party in power to swing the vote in their favor by redrawing lines
Other than being able to use it to cheat in other to hold on to power?
The fact that their evil dickhead grifters are doing overtime to cry and blame the Dems for not taking the gerrymandering laying down is awesome. We're only here because of Trump demanding Texas gerrymander for five seats. You cocksuckers don't get to punch someone in the face then complain when they fight back. I fucking hate right-wingers with all of my being. Horrible traitorous human beings.
Yokels surrounded by empty land want their 3x voting power back, boo fucking hoo. I'm proud of my state right now. SCV better not shit the bed on this one.
Turns out it's actually much easier to gerrymander when you already have a 15+ point majority statewide
Hardly call it gerrymandering with voting spread like that.
Get the fire hose, let's paint the rest of the country blue too!
As long as we also get rid of conservative aspect of the Democrat party and make it one for the workers instead of big money interest, sure.
Conservatism is a curse