I support an elected government with secular state thank you
this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
So you support the displacement of the people of israel?
- Where to?
- Which people? Anyone who is an Israeli citizen?
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Whatever country they come from or to new palestine if that's not possible.
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Yes, all Israelis
- Hang on, don't stop. Which countries? And by new palastine do you mean the one controlled by Hamas who have kill all jews and christians in their charter? So basically just kill everyone who is currently living in Israel?
- So all the christian and muslim arabs who are Israeli citizens too. Right? You wouldn't want to come off as a racist impliying only jews should be displaced would you?
1.The countries they came from. They are Jewish settlers. I.e they came from other countries to settle I'm palestianian land. So they should return to the (mostly European) countries they came from. Or they can join they can emigrate elsewhere if they don't feel safe lying in the bed they made with how they treated Palestinians.
Just like any other decolonisation effort, the colonisers need to leave or they can stay and try and integrate or face retribution for their colonisation. Are you going to feel bad for British colonisers that got caught and displaced during revolutions in the BE?
- Yes obviously, hence why I spoke about Israel and not about Jews. Its a decolonisation effort, so they either leave to their country of origin, emmegrate elsewhere or becomes citizens of a decolonisation Palestine. You trying to imply I'm being antisemitic just shows you don't actually care about the issue and are just using usual tactics to try and win an argument on the internet.
So you're calling for decolonization of all countries in the world? Every person should immigrate back to their country of origin? And how long back is "country of origin" defined? Do you acknowledge that all Jewish people originate from Israel or is that something we need to debate as well?
Obviously not, lots of countries have already been decolonised and most over aren't colonised in the first place. Or if you argue the toss (which is all you seek to be able to do) they were colonised so long ago that there is no way to actually decolonise them. Like say England.
But if you come down to earth for a moment. Israel was created <100 years ago, and there still exists Palestine and its people that had their land stolen from. Much of which was stolen very recently. Acting like there's no difference between this situation and every other country is dishonest at best and I'm sure you're already aware of that.
Now do you actually care about this or a you just trying to win an Internet argument against someone who disagreed with you.
"there still exists Palestine and its people". No. Before the state of Israel there was the british occupation. Before that the turkish ottoman empire. Before that there was an Egyptian rule and so on and so on. There were wars and the rule of this specific piece of land changed. At no point in history was there ever a Palstinian country. There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago. During all of history there were both jewish and arabs living in Israel. Calling the jewish people of Israel "colonists" is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own. The arabs, instead of accepting the split launched a war in whclich they lost. And yes, many people were evicted from theor homes. Such is war. Then, they had multiple chances to accept peace offerings and build a country, instead they kept rejecting the offers and kept launching attacks at Israel. Culminating with the oct/7 attack which is where we find ourselves today. As i mentioned earlier, you and many around the world would like the Jews to just die. That won't happen. What you should be doing is making memes about Hamas and how they keep enriching their leaders pockets and building terror infrastructure instead of helping the Palestinian people.
This is actually the stupidest fucking argument you could possibly make on this subject.
Show me when an Indian country existed before British rule, or a South African country. Does that mean India had no right to freedom? No of course not. So why does their not being a specific country of Palestine before now invalidate the Palestinians right to freedom.
is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own.
I actually laughed out loud at this. This would be great comedic timing in a political satire. Accusing me of trying to change history then in the next fucking line you do it yourself. Israel wasn't some magnanimous compensation for the holocaust. Jews were still looked down on by most people in the west so this was the Jews chance to escape but for the governemnts in the west it was a solution to the Jewish "problem", literally just an excuse to get rid of the Jews. So they set up a colony in Palestine, since they didn't give a shit about what the Arabs wanted either. There is no "well akshually it's not a colony because a tiny minority of Jews already lived their" it's a colony by every definition.
And I really can't be arsed to go through your whole "the Arabs were actually in the wrong for not accepting having their land unilaterally stolen from them" bullshit and you outright hand-waving of Israeli occupation and settlements. Just pretty clear you don't actually give a shit about any sort of morals or reasoning. You're either here because peoples lives are fun little arguments for you, or you made up your mind a while ago and no amount of information to the contrary will ever change your mind so you just causally dismiss it in order to stick to your opinions.
So with that said I'm just going to block you because you're either a bored troll or an actual morally bankrupt piece of shit, and I don't want to deal with either one.
Excellent debate. Thanks.
You know, when you advantage a hypothetical displacement over an ongoing one, the implicit argument is that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. You're asking: wouldn't it be horrible for the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?
If you think it's unfair to displace one oppressed people in favor of another, then yea, I agree.
And the slogan is “Palestine will be free”. It isn’t that Israelis will be exiled or some shit. It is a call for liberation of all people.
Let's also not forget that these people didn't seem to care that Israel very much engaged in "from the river to the sea" when they continued to displace and marginalize the majority-population mid-20th century as dictated by outside nations.
And if the world was that concerned over the refugees of the Holocaust, why didn't the British or Poland volunteer a piece of their own land?
The thing is that nobody cares about Holocaust survivors, Israel has completely forgotten about them and most died in abject poverty despite the world paying lip service with millions in charity and repairs ending up in the pockets of zionist politicians while the holocaust survivors suffered and starved.
Umm. Generalize much? Sure there are some people fitting that description but the vast majority of holocaust survivora have led hugely successful lives. Heck, they built Israel.
I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die because Jihadists are using their own people as human shields. There have been over 7 times where the Palestinian people have had a chance to establish an actual state. They refused each and every time. So I'm struggling to see a parallel between what Israel is doing (defending its people) vs what you are suggesting.
I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die
This makes it sound like Israel's existence depends on the Palestinian people NOT being free
The Palestinian people have had many many options to accept a two state solution and "be free". But they will never be free because their leaders only want the distruction of Israel and death of all jews. And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
I'm Palestinian, grew up in a Palestinian family, went to lots of protests, "Kill all Jews" is not something people say out or appreciate. The problem is with Zionists, not Jew.
That being said, totally legal to march in Israel and chant "Death to all Arabs"
Ok. I assume you don't live in Gaza. Because then you'd be learning antisemitism in school: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eu-study-confirms-incitement-in-palestinian-textbooks
And I assume you don't go to mosque because then you'd be hearing about gharqad
And probably didn't attend these protests: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/death-to-the-jews-chants-heard-at-berlin-pro-palestinian-rally/amp/
Yes, antisemitism exists. No, Palestinians as a collective don't want to kill all Jews. The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement.
And no, I did not go to those protests, and if I did I would have spoken up about it and not let people chant such bullshit.
And no, I don't go to mosques, I'm an atheist.
Ah yes and the antisemitism in books claim:
One religious studies textbook asks students to discuss the “repeated attempts by the Jews to kill the prophet” Muhammad and asks who are “other enemies of Islam.”
This is a historical event, regarding specifically the Jewish tribes near Mecca. That being said, fuck Mohammed and fuck Israel just the same.
A math text showed a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots to describe Newton’s second law of motion.
LOL. What is the issue exactly? Doesn't say "Jews", says specifically hitting an Israel soldier, as one should when all means of resistance have run out.
Another textbook “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing “Zionist drawings and shapes.”
Yes, good example of antisemitism, haven't double checked this though and don't really know what it refers to 🤔 pretty sure Israel ruined all sorts of historical Palestinian sites anyway.
About Dalal Al Maghrebi, yeah, that's bad, I agree, she should not be hailed as a hero.
The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement. - please show your proof. And please don't give me quotes from several outliers which unfortunately have been brought recently into the Israeli government. They don't represent the majority of Israel as apperantly the multitudes cheering in the streets while the October 7th hostiges were paraded through Gaza streets represent the people of Gaza.
Everything on the news today. That's proof.
That's proof that there is a war on. No proof of any systematic killings. Based on Palestinian reports there are about 20000 dead, no information of course on how many of them combatants. So over the course of 3 months you have a less than 1 percent fatalities. I point you back to my meme and ask tou where's the genocide. In the ww2 bombing of dresden 25000 people were killed in just 4 attacks. Israel is doing everything possible to kill only combatants. As I mentioned earlier it is impossible to avoid civilian deaths as they are being used as human shields. Military equipment is constantly being found in hospitals, mosques, schools and under childrens beds.
. Israel is doing everything possible to kill only combatants.
Hmmm, so why does Israel use dumb bombs and large missiles that caused the Christmas Massacre for example? 🤔
Also what about all the dead journalists? If Israel can't help but shoot at people whose vests say PRESS, then why should I believe this claim of yours?
Israel has lost over 500 soldiers to date. Why put soldiers at risk? You can be sure that if all Israel wanted was annihilation then there are way better ways (dumb bombs as you say) to just completely level Gaza. Israel is targeting military targets which reside within dense population. This sometimes results in unintended deaths thats war. Also, journalists in war zone tend to get killed. Especially ones which embed themselves within combatants. I would also argue the actual number of journalists killed is much smaller, as the definition of a "journalist" is very fluid these days. But that's just my speculation at the moment, I don't have facts to back that up.
If Israel is trying its best not to hurt civilians, then why is an unreasonable amount of civilians dead by everyone else's account except for yours and Israel's?
I won't comment about not considering them journalists since I think that's a weak speculative argument with nothing to back it up (all journalists killed could be traced to an organization they worked for or freelanced for). So I'm ignored this BS.
What would be a reasonable amount? What do you consider a reasonable response towards people who decapitate babies? Bake them in ovens in front of their parents? Rape women while mutilating their bodies? The list goes on. What's a reasonable response for a country that has had this thing done upon it?
Israel is at war. A war it did not start and it will do everything it can to ensure rhis never happens again.
Another question for you, if Gaza is so dangerous for innocent civilians due to indiscriminate bombings, why isn't Egypt taking in refugees? Why aren't civilians allowed to take shelter in the kilometers of underground tunnels which were built using th billions (yes billions) of dollars the Gaza strip has received over the years?
I thought no babies were decapitated. This turned out to be disinformation :/ in case you missed the memo
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/
At this point I think you're just a misinformation bot lol
Unfortunately, I know this for a fact (I'm from Israel, talked to people who were there). It's not even the worst thing that was done. As Israel is torn between protecting the victims of the attacks and explaining them to the world, the proof you require will probably never be shown. I assume you are familiar with the "Hamas horror film"? Is what it shows not enough to go to an all out war against an enemy that has very clearly shown its only goal is your total destruction?
I'm tempering my response here considering it looks like this account is singularly focused on zionist agitprop, but this bit here:
And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing[sic] only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
sure sounds a lot like you're attempting to justify genocide because people have rightly criticized Israel for brutality and indifference toward the [non-combatant] people of Gaza.
I can at least feel reassured that none of your fascistic and genocidal comments have gotten much support here. You should redirect your efforts elsewhere.
Ah. The genocide card. It's actually great when people bring that one up. Please check these facts: Palestinian population 1948: 1.37 million Palestinian population 2023: 5.5 million in Israel, about 14.2 million world wide. Here's a meme concept for you, the one with the dog from rick and morty: "where's the genocide summer?"
Btw, for real genocide: Jewish population of europe before ww2: 9.5 million Jewish population after ww2: 3.5 million See how that works?
From the River to the Sea does not necessarily insinuate that all Israelis will be displaced, killed, etc.
At minimum, the Israeli state should be abolished. I think first generation settlers who aren't refugees and can return to their home country should probably leave.
Please go on. Where should the jews go? Which countries in the world would gladly accept 7 million jews? And by abolishing the Israel state I assume you are a big supporter of Sharia law. So no women rights, all LGBT people should be put to death, etc...