this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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[–] infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)

Fuck both, honestly. I can take pride in who I am, learn history, improve my community and defend it, without tying all of those values to a nation state that can and will inevitably at some point use it's centralized, hierarchical, border-delineated power to oppress and dominate and be exactly the thing I don't want.

I'm sick of these lib takes clinging desperately to values they never bothered to fully examine because of some misplaced nostalgia, national mythology, material privilege, etc.

💗 🌸 🤗 Death to America 😎 ❤️ 💋

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[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 4 points 2 days ago

Brazilian "patriots" bow to USA demands, so they're also dumb

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

That's just wrong, patriotism is subjective. The word means having a sense of pride, support, or devotion to your country. However, this concept can interpreted in wildly different ways by different people. One person could think that patriotism means standing by your country right or wrong, but another person could think that patriotism means criticizing your country when it's done wrong. Both of these are valid forms of patriotism, it's just that one is more extreme than the other.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Don’t argue with me. Argue with Patrick O’Brien

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean you quoted him, you clearly endorse his view.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean, yeah, but that’s because I read all of his books

You should do that.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Good for you I guess, my criticism of the quote still stands though

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[–] Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I feel like all those traits from patriotism are on a venn with something else like internationalism/antipatriotism, like they can indeed be found in patriotism but are not at the heart of what it is. Like, technically, german, italian or japanese patriots fought alongside nazis. You can say your country can do better regardless of whether you support its existence or not. It's not necessary to learn from history to be a patriot, etc.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If you don't learn from history, you're destined to repeat it.

Repeating history being entirely compatible with patriotism, right ?

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Patriotism is a subjective concept. There are patriots who completely disagree with each other but still have a similar level of devotion for their country. People supporting their countries is not exactly radical. In fact, it's very common everywhere but Lemmy because this place is filled with tankies.

[–] Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

People supporting their countries is not exactly radical.

Well from an anti-state perspective, supporting a country that commits radical acts such as monopoly of violence is by extension radical, but i think you meant that patriotism is widely spread, and that is relatively true, at least most people have patriotic "instincts" (even though in my experience, discussing and questioning their patriotism often reveals that they are patriotic by default and could have a different position if they reflected upon it).

it's very common everywhere but Lemmy because this place is filled with tankies.

I'd say tankies are also patriotic, just not for USA. Fatherland is a quite important concept in post-leninism forms of authoritarian communism. From my experience, it's much more common to find anti-patriotism in libertarian communism / anarchism than in despotic communism.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Well from an anti-state perspective, supporting a country that commits radical acts such as monopoly of violence is by extension radical

This view is flawed because it mislabels the state's monopoly on violence as inherently radical. In reality, this monopoly exists to prevent chaos by centralizing and regulating force. Calling it radical ignores the distinction between structured authority and unregulated violence. Supporting a state doesn’t mean endorsing oppression, it can mean recognizing the need for order over anarchy. The reason why humans have evolved to favor order over anarchy is because order provides stability, and this allows people to built up complex societies in relative safety.

I’d say tankies are also patriotic, just not for USA. Fatherland is a quite important concept in post-leninism forms of authoritarian communism. From my experience, it’s much more common to find anti-patriotism in libertarian communism / anarchism than in despotic communism.

Patriotism at it's core is just a sense of pride, and that's a universal emotion that everybody has. Everybody wants to feel like they belong to something greater. It gives us a feeling of nobility. All people share a feeling similar to patriotism, even if it's labeled as something else... even anarchists.

[–] Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

order over anarchy

There is a lexical error/approximation here. Anarchy does not oppose to order, anomy is. Anarchy just says that order must not emerge from authority but from solidarity. You can disagree, but saying that anarchy is disorder by definition is a mislabeling.

mislabels the state's monopoly on violence as inherently radical

I disagree with this being a mislabeling (though i understand that it remains an opinion and you disagree with it). It is common to see any form of violence as radical, and i've seen this logic used by tenants of authority themselves under the saying "Violence is never a solution". Adding distinction of organized/disorganized violence is an arbitrary choice, and there is no logical imperative of doing so : holding all types of violence accountable, no matter their positive potential, is not a mislabel, it is a take on violence. On another note, i'll add that organized violence can be undoubtedly far worse than disorganized one at times of war and massacre. Also, evolution from ~anarchy~disorder to "order" is not that simple. From what we currently know, humanity lived far longer without structured power, and when those came with sedentarization, came wars and massacres too.

that's a universal emotion that everybody has

Labeling something as "universal" without involuntary hyperbole is blatantly false. Humanity is made from diversity, and there are very few affirmations outside of physics that can correctly be applied to all of humanity. Everyone is unique, you'll find some people without any patriotism (way more than you think) and even without pride.

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[–] pissraelian@lemmings.world 1 points 1 day ago

Lmao maybe for losers. I take pride in my own accomplishment. People who need to take pride in their country have to resort to external pride because they didn't do shit themselves

[–] BlurryBits@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Patriotism is a MacGuffin -

It's a feeling.

Now, you may think I'm attempting to invalidate it, but far from it. From the revolutionary war up to present - what is a 'Patriot' has been poorly defined, and left to subjective interpretation.

Forget the gaslighting Republicans have been under since the Tea-Party. Let's go back, say thirty years, to the Family Values Coalition. Or perhaps another thirty years back to McCarthyism and the HUAC. Or even further back to Strom Thurman trying to legitimize the KKK. (or else we could just recognize that the family lines in control of the narrative now, are the slave-owner families of the South.)

-Make no doubt - They think they are 'Patriots'.

People will become bellicose about what a true 'patriot' is - I tell you, don't give two flying-f*cks..

Did Thomas Paine, and Paul Revere know the impact of their actions on those days? Of course not.

And that is the way it will be with this new history. It tends to be defined by the victors, by the way. Might wanna get off your ass...

[–] ultranaut@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

It's more than a feeling, it's a tactic. If you want the masses on side it is another one of the tools in the box.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Patriotism is loving your country and wanting it to prosper. Nationalism is believing your country is superior to other countries and seeing all others as adversaries.

It's the difference between working on self-improvement because you care about yourself vs. wanting to take things from others and being paranoid about them taking from you.

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[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 3 points 2 days ago

I will add that ethnicity, religious identification or lack thereof, or nationality doesn't exempt anyone. USA and Christianity aren't the first, only, or last to reinvent and suppress the parts of history we don't like, but we're certainly going full throttle, along with some other states and religions.

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