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Catholic Church To Excommunicate Priests for Following New US State Law (www.newsweek.com)

submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

158 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The Catholic Church has issued a warning to its clergy in Washington state: Any priest who complies with a new law requiring the reporting of child abuse confessions to authorities will be excommunicated.

https://www.newsweek.com/catholic-church-excommunicate-priests-following-new-us-state-law-2069039

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Separation of church and state goes both ways.

Confession is a religious rite. Try to legislate that rite is a violation of that separation.

Priests are bound by their office to maintain absolute confidentiality of confessed sins. Otherwise people are not likely to confess their sins.

It doesn’t matter how you, personally, feel about this or their religion or the value of confession as a sacrament, that’s their religion. The state doesn’t get to intervene.

The church should stay out of state affairs, and the state should stay out of church affairs. Exceptions exist, like when practices are outright criminal in themselves. But the state cannot compel a priest to violate their office. This is long accepted. You cannot compel a priest to testify about confession, for example.

Priests can encourage people to go to the police, but that’s it. Their role in confession is between the sinner and their god.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 36 minutes ago* (last edited 34 minutes ago)

You know what that's fair. This is the "just" thing to do.
I still do hope priests will try to fix it in their own communities tho.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 36 minutes ago

The Catholic church is hardly going to allow priests to be forced to go to the police and admit crimes.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago

Excommunicated vs Imprisoned. The choice is yours.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Mixed feelings

Obviously the clergy have absolute values which they believe come from god, so obviously they're not equipped to make exceptions such as this as individuals. You would have to appeal the to pope and cardinals directly to change the rules.

How does the state intend to enforce this? Is there a priest registry in washington state, and does it account for all recognized religions for tax purposes? Are they going to take away peoples license to preach?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago

Bro it's breaking Catholic canon. They can change that shit that's what the Pope is for.

Maybe God would be chill with revealing child abuse even if it comes from confession. Just carve a little exception out there. Crazy that the clergy would rather protect pedophiles than reinterpreting some doctrine.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

A curious question. Why isn't everyone a mandatory reporter for child abuse? And assuming there is a good reason why, then why are doctors and such specifically seperated out. And do priests fit that same criteria?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 hours ago

You've touched on a key point, I think. Doctors and other professionals have mandatory reporting because a) they are in positions of respect and trust within the community, and b) they are professionals, as defined in law, and have standards to uphold.

Priests definitely meet the definition of a), however b) is a bit of a sticking point: their role isn't defined by law, but by the church. Furthermore, a court can order you to go to therapy sessions, but they can't order you to go to confession - it's completely voluntary. A therapist could tease out previous abuse, but a priest will only hear what the confessor wants to tell them about.

I'm in line with you in thinking that everyone should report abuse, but I think that a priest has more in common with an average person in this regard compared to a person working in a legally protected profession. There would be legal consequences for impersonating a therapist, but not for impersonating a priest.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

It has to do with professional training and responsibility (duty of care), coupled with kids trusting them more and they are considered to have some para-custodial responsibility for children.

Priests aren't entirely in that category, but they probably should be, the question is the relationship of the priests, ie a random priest who heard a rumor is very different from one who heard confession or tends the victim or abuser directly.

Also, you don't want to empower random-ass people too much, people are absolute fucking morons and media will incite them to do something more moronic:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/vigilante-mob-attacks-home-of-paediatrician-710864.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzagate_conspiracy_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

Inbred rednecks just danger incarnate, empowering them in any way is insane and will guarantee needess innocent victims.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

So it was unclear to me from the article if it simply made priests mandatory reporters or if it went further. My understanding is that mandatory reporters don't have to report past occurrences specifically. They only havecto report if it is currently happening or they suspect going to happen. If that is the case, it should be fine. Confession isn't about what you are going to do.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 hours ago

Priests are being made into mandatory reporters in Washington state. In Washington state, the mandatory reporting law appears to require reporting of all past events of abuse - it does not make reference to recent acts or imminent risk.

Sec. 2. (1) (a) When [any member of these groups] has reasonable cause to believe that a child has suffered abuse or neglect, he or she shall report such incident, or cause a report to be made, to the proper law enforcement agency or to the department

https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/?BillNumber=5375&Year=2025

[–] [email protected] 116 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Why aren't all the preists who diddle kids excommunicated?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago

No one would go to church if they thought their kids wouldn’t get experience

[–] [email protected] 10 points 15 hours ago

Because that's the whole point of the church. It's just one big sham so they can diddle kids

[–] [email protected] 20 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

Catholic Church = Child Molester Haven.

Pretty simple.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 hours ago

I’m going to describe a joke from It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia (since I can’t find a clip).

The season 15 Ireland arc

After Mac goes to a church and tells a priest he wants to become a priest, he presents a potential conflict. In vague terms, Mac explains he is gay. The priest the entire time says that is acceptable. In the end you learn the priest misunderstood and thought Mac was saying he was sexually attracted to children.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 18 hours ago

Oh, it's most churches. And the GOP.

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[–] [email protected] 130 points 1 day ago (8 children)

Therapists are required to break confidentiality if they suspect child abuse. The church thinks it is above secular law and only answers to God, not to mention the protection it offers to its own child abusers. It's complete nonsense and a good example of why religious tolerance has limits.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

This is completely accurate, and yet so many responses are pretending it's not.

A mandated reporter is a person who is required by law to report crimes, typically if they know or suspect a child or vulnerable adult has been or is at risk of being abused or neglected

Mandated reporters have to report child abuse. Full goddamn stop. No, it doesn't matter if it's in the past, why the fuck would that change anything?

These people really think that it's okay not to report pedophilia? Why? Because the pedophile confessed to inarguably one of the worst crimes imaginable, and promised not to do it anymore?

You think a therapist wouldn't report that because their patient said they won't do it anymore? Did they pinky swear?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

These people really think that it’s okay not to report pedophilia? Why? Because the pedophile confessed to inarguably one of the worst crimes imaginable, and promised not to do it anymore?

So that paedophiles don't stay away from confession, so that priests can tell them that god wants them to go to the police as penance. Noone is helped when paedophiles instead keep their mouths shut.

You think a therapist wouldn’t report that because their patient said they won’t do it anymore? Did they pinky swear?

Over here in Germany, therapists may break confidentiality over planned or grave crimes, but are not required to. It's always a balancing act and from what I've heard in the US you can get arrested for telling your therapist that you took drugs which is insane.

Mandatory reporting doesn't solve problems and while doing that causes a ton of others. There's a gazillion things you can do to address things, making snitching mandatory is about the least useful and most damaging.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

So that paedophiles don’t stay away from confession, so that priests can tell them that god wants them to go to the police as penance. Noone is helped when paedophiles instead keep their mouths shut.

There are specifically no systems in place for that to happen, or indication that that actually does happen. There is specifically every indication that churches often cover up these crimes as a matter of habit. Without mandated reporting, we can literally never know what happened.

There is very little evidence of societal benefits or needs when it comes to secrecy in confession. There are benefits and needs when it comes to secrecy with mental health professionals, and yet they often are mandated to report these crimes anyway, because the risks of not reporting far outweigh the benefits of secrecy.

Germany is behind the times and most of the EU on this one:

In 15 Member States (Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, France, Hungary, Ireland, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom) reporting obligations are in place for all professionals.

In 10 Member States (Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Greece, Finland, Italy, Latvia, Portugal and Slovakia) existing obligations only address certain professional groups such as social workers or teachers.

In Germany, Malta and the Netherlands, no reporting obligations were in place in March 2014.

This isn't "the US is the exception" for once.

I've heard in the US you can get arrested for telling your therapist that you took drugs which is insane.

Source? I have literally never heard that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Source? I have literally never heard that.

Don't know where I got it from, but second google hit: https://www.amahahealth.com/blog/can-i-talk-to-my-therapist-about-my-illicit-drug-use/

But, there is a condition - your therapist is also bound by the ethical duty of reducing harm, so if they find out that your drug use can cause harm to you or someone else, they might have to report you to the authorities.

So if they figure that you are in a state where you might be leaving needles behind at playgrounds, they have to report you. They have no leeway to say "I can convince this guy to be more mindful". That alone wouldn't be that bad, but if you're in a downward spiral, "causing harm to yourself", they also have to report you. Which, given the state of the US criminal justice system, is going to do even more harm. The whole thing is unethical AF.

There are specifically no systems in place for that to happen, or indication that that actually does happen. There is specifically every indication that churches often cover up these crimes as a matter of habit.

[citation needed]

I mean not the matter of habit covering up thing particularly when it comes to the Catholic Church, but e.g. Lutherans also take confessions and over here the EKD very much had not that kind of issue: Abuse exists, as it does everywhere, but it did not have institutional backing, much less wide-spread. When one instance of one superior covering for one subordinate came to light they stepped on it hard and passed new laws that include mandatory reporting -- but not when it comes to confession. "See something, do something", yes, but not "Take confession, do something".

It's that kind of thing the Catholics should be criticised for -- somehow the Lutherans had several magnitudes less of a problem, and yet reacted magnitudes more decisively when it comes to stopping it, making sure that church structures don't turn into a criminal conspiracy. Lifting or not lifting the seal won't do anything to institutional rot. You're focussing on the wrong thing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

That drug use thing is a massive stretch of the words "cause harm to yourself or others". That clause is - to my knowledge - used exclusively to mean things like abuse, assault, murder, or suicide.

Please provide a source of that actually happening or a legislative or judicial ruling that supports that idea at all.

And really? Most of the Lutheran church specifically agrees with breaching the seal of confessional, and specifically supports mandated reporting.

While there is some support for absolute secrecy of a private confession, Lutheran history and the Book of Concord do not support the concept of keeping a confidence if it risks the ongoing abuse or death of a child or requires the pastor to violate civil or criminal laws designed to protect children from abuse.

While Scripture discourages gossiping and speech designed to damage the reputation of another, keeping a confidence “is not an absolute, especially when others are being harmed or may be hurt."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 hour ago

That drug use thing is a massive stretch of the words “cause harm to yourself or others”. That clause is - to my knowledge - used exclusively to mean things like abuse, assault, murder, or suicide.

Did some further googling and it appears that what I remember might apply to a) school councillors and the like, and b) law enforcement getting reports about type of treatment after they dropped someone off. Why law enforcement is doing EMT stuff is of course yet a whole another topic.

While Scripture discourages gossiping and speech designed to damage the reputation of another, keeping a confidence “is not an absolute, especially when others are being harmed or may be hurt.

And that's exactly how German law sees it: Breaking confidence is permitted in certain cases, but not mandated. On the flipside, if you're e.g. a cop or a child care worker, when you see certain things you are required to pursue them, that's different in e.g. the Netherlands where cops are free to ignore you if you light up a joint in front of them, and tell them about it, and don't even hide it in a brown bag. People taking confessions including therapists are neither of those, though, so they do not have that kind of duty.

Law will never be able to cover, in detail, the balancing process necessary to actually reduce harm in any specific case. It is a very blunt instrument.

You're exchanging one absolute for another. The original absolute btw, not being that absolute because catholic priests can tattle anonymously (if the state allows for such things, different topic), and then themselves confess. But it should never be a "hear X, do Y" kind of deal. That doesn't serve the situation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago

Shit like this is why it is explicitly written that Baha'is must follow the law of the land before the laws of god.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

This is not true. A therapist would be required to break confidentially if they became aware that their Client is going to harm themselves or others, or if they are mandated by law.

What someone already did in the past generally isn't reported.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

I find zero sources that agree with your claim.

I find several sources that indicate that therapists in all US states are required to break confidentiality when child abuse has occurred.

https://psychcentral.com/health/what-do-therapists-have-to-report

https://www.remnantcounselorcollective.com/resources/86536/the-ultimate-guide-to-mandated-reporting-laws-in-all-50-us-states-child-adult-abuse-neglect

https://www.stopitnow.org/ohc-content/when-must-a-therapist-file-a-report

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-therapists-report-confidentiality_l_5d2cf063e4b0bca603641a62

https://www.mentalyc.com/blog/exceptions-to-confidentiality-in-counseling

So either you're talking about another country's laws (in which case I'd like to know which country), or you're just incorrect.

I'm in Colombia, where psychologists are required to report "human rights violations, mistreatment or cruel, inhuman or degrading conditions of confinement of which any person is a victim and of which they become aware in the exercise of their profession."

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[–] [email protected] 266 points 1 day ago (43 children)

I read the headline and was prepared to support the church on this one (for once). Then I read the first paragraph of the article. I have never made a 180 on an opinion so fast. The fuck is wrong with the Catholic church and child abuse? Why is this a constant problem with them?

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