this post was submitted on 24 Apr 2025
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This would only make the blockchain more resistant, 51% attacks practically impossible, Firo for example has implemented this, what would be the disadvantage?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

A benefit of PoS that is relevant to the Monero use case is that it would allow faster finality times. How do you implement sub 5s finality with PoW? You can't... If there is a use case for which fast finality matters is certainly in-person payments. I think this is a drawback for Monero that isn't being discussed enough.

There has been many chains (I'll take eCash - XEC as a model, fork of BCH that implemented the avalanche consensus) that have successfully implemented a hybrid PoW/PoS approach and I think exploring this for Monero would make sense. One of the big concern with PoS is coin distribution especially for crypto that had a pre-mine. That's not a concern that Monero will ever have. PoW is still important to guarantee that the blockchain can be retrieved in a trustless manner. PoS has by design a trusted setup.

Let's take the best of both worlds and make Monero a better medium of exchange that it's already is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

By the way I don't know if Aaron Day has commented on the reasons for choosing Zano for it point-of-sales system but I bet that fast finality was a key factor in his decision and honestly it makes sense. You can't have a serious in-person payment solution being widely adopted with unpredictable, long finality times. Now if we want to stick to online payments only, fast finality isn't as important but we have to be honest about the limitation of PoW for the digital cash use case.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

The primary reason to not use PoS is simply having an ongoing cost and expense external to the network.

So when we quantify mining revenue and staking revenue, what we usually do is quantify risk. A miner must make an investment and has an average expected return, their exposure is partly to volatility of bitcoin for example and to energy prices and what not. A staker of ethereum for example doesnt really have this, their risk is only in making mistakes, server downtime, opportunity cost. The slashing rates and things are designed with incentive in mind primarily, and expected risk losses are downstream of those decisions. But we always quantify it in terms of risk, but theres another big side of this: ongoing expense.

There is a minimal ongoing cost to staking. Make your initial investment, get high uptime on your node, youre good. A miner has an ongoing cost, in energy, in big facilities, in hardware depracation. Additionally, a miner has an ongoing cost external tp the network. This os a very big thing. they have to buy energy, hardware. A staker doesn't have anything like that, their activity is entirely internal to the network.

There are major game theoretical implications to these big differences. There are pros and cons, but all in all I and most people, and particularly in the Monero world, think PoW handily wins out.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 days ago
  • Monero should be in circulation and used. Not to be staked by investors.
  • The Nakamoto Consensus is well understood and simple. Increased complexity would always come with a larger attack surface.
[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

PoS has two main problems: (1) It makes the blockchain less resistant. (2) the Cantillion Effect. With PoS, all it takes to do a 51% attack is to have enough XMR.

If you look at the existing financial system, you can regularly see the big players openly sabotaging themselves to either kill competition or push down prices to cause a panic and then silently buy back more than they had sold while people are still panicking or just because they are subsidized to do so (e.g. DEI). With XMR's antagonism to the existing financial system, PoS would be a death sentence. PoW + PoS changes little since you can just game the algorithm so the PoW doesn't matter.

The Cantillion Effect is essentially, people with wealth get more and more power over time to game the system because they have wealth (PoS) and not because the did anything to deserve that wealth (PoW). It's the whole reason why the financial system is the way it is now and XMR should have no part of it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

@g2devi @XMRbutterfly @monero PoW doesn't guarantee that wealth is deserved, because computing power can be bought too. It's a bit harder to buy than tokens, but that doesn't change the big picture.

Monero should stick to PoW, though, because it works. It didn't work for Firo, apparently, so they had to change it, but I am not aware of any 51% attacks on Monero.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

PoW means you're doing work to support XMR, so any XMR you get from mining is deserved. Yes, bigger entities have an advantage in doing more work, but so do off-grid mining with cheap/"free" energy in cold climates. It all balances out.

With PoS, the more you have, the higher your validation rewards, and the higher the rewards, the more you rewards, the more you have, which leads to even higher validation rewards. This rapidly leads to a few players dominating and the rest of the people fighting for crumbs at an accelerating rate. Plus since the big players are the only ones getting rewards, the little guy has to stake with the big players, increasing the profits for the big players (hooray for capitalism!). However, if there is any slashing, the penalties are spread to all the little guy stakers (hooray for socialism!). This leads to a situation that encourages big players to go for a 51% attack since if they succeed, they get wealthier and if they lose, their losses are absorbed by everyone else.

This can happen in PoW too (see Blackrock and Michael Sailor), but even there having a lot of the coin does not give you more power, only doing the PoW, so the growth is slower and the extra XMR doesn't give you more power over XMR. Having a tail emission like Monero does should be enough to ensure that eventually no matter how much you have, it will be diluted by what's yet to be mined.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Monero has always been open to improvements in principle. However, security and privacy come first. try Zano

[–] [email protected] -3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

how would it make it more resistant? what is a 51% attack. we don't know what you mean