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If perpetrators happen to be of one sex more often, then it means the rates of being charged with the relevant crime will be higher for that sex.
A crime must be treated equally, regardless of sex. The law treating one differently based on their sex is itself sexist. As I stated before, this should have been something that applies to all: ‘murdering someone due to their sex is now a hate crime’.
You’re assuming that the perpetrators will be male, the law doesn’t say that. Your argument is that if males are the perpetrators more often…then the law is sexist? By that logic most laws are “biased” against men.
You’re incorrect that the intent or text of the law is to add extra punishment. It’s just it’s a charging mechanism that carries the same sentence. It’s a law dealing with a real world problem and it makes it less likely for perpetrators to escape culpability. Folks act as if the crime of homicide has been somehow diminished, when it hasn’t.
That I don't understand. How does this help to stop a murderer from escaping culpability? Maybe you mean it's a question of intent and the recognition of femicide avoids someone pleading a lesser charge due to heightened emotional state, but still I don't see how that isn't covered by just recognizing gender based violence/killing as a hate crime.
To me this looks like a pointless law which doesn't change anything much in a practical sense, to create the appearance of doing something about a problem which really requires a serious social and educational approach. I recognize that femicide is a real and gender specific problem, but the law shouldn't be, because justice should always be even handed. I believe the reason this law is gender specific is because they are pretending it's a solution to the problem, which it isn't.
It’s as impractical as an infanticide law.
Yes, the system also should and is focusing on education.
Infanticide law is generally used to reduce what might otherwise be a murder charge, to make allowance for the mental stress of recent childbirth. It typically carries a lesser sentence. So it has a purpose and an effect.
But that's not the case with femicide. I'm not convinced that this law has any purpose other than making an empty gesture. Do you think anyone contemplating the killing of a woman is going to think twice because they might be tried for femicide instead of plain old murder? If not, it won't prevent a single killing.
Femicide also has a “purpose and effect”, because you’re proving a different crime.
I think you have a limited understanding of the law and the world.
Yes, I really don't understand why killing a woman is not murder, partly because you have failed to make any case for it. It makes sense to frame such murders in the context of a hate crime, to ensure severe sentencing, but saying it's a different crime from murder, but with the same sentence, makes no sense to me. The proposition that killing a woman is different from murder implies that women are somehow different from human beings, which is the kind of thinking that's causing femicide to be a significant trend in the first place.
To pick up on something you said eariler:
The Italian government is indeed focusing on education. They are actively working to oppose sexual and emotional education in schools, proposing a law to require explicit parental consent for such education, while banning it altogether in elementary school, thus ensuring it does not reach the children who need it the most. The new crime of "femicide" provides a token gesture which accomplishes nothing, while effective and easily available measures to reduce violence against women are being obstructed.
Femicide is a type of murder. You seem to just be playing word games. Culpability is important for justice. Different types are murder are treated differently…it’s not a complicated concept.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue at the end. There are a lot of important “pillars” when you’re dealing with real world issues. You don’t just focus on one/your preferred pillar or attack the other pillars…you work together to build more and buttress what you have.
Femicide is a type of murder. Not a different crime. Just a subset of the many possible motives there could be for murder. Unless there is some substantial difference in establishing guilt or sentencing, inventing a "new crime" of femicide doesn't change anything. Culpability is an important factor in murder cases, that doesn't change here. What I'm trying to argue is that this isn't functional legislation, it's empty virtue signalling, from a government that is actively reversing social progress and making matters worse for women.
I don’t agree that it doesn’t change anything: it serves two purposes. First, the law has unique statutes when assessing culpability…second it serves as a public awareness tool, a deterrent, when the crimes happen - and all laws are ultimately intended to be deterrents.
You’re just saying “murder is murder is murder”, and that’s simply not how any court functions.
How is it sexist? Both men and women are equally culpable for their actions under this law. It just takes into account intent which is difficult to prove in most cases. Nothing about the law takes the sex of the perpetrator into account.
Some people argue that intent shouldn't be considered when sentencing people for their crimes.
I believe intent impacts a perpetrator's potential rehabilitation (something a lot of countries put very little effort into when keeping people incarcerated) and should therefore affect sentencing.
If that's how the other commenter feels I'd be happy to have a different conversation, but judging by his replies I don't know if he's arguing from there or not
Murdering someone due to their sex is not illegal under this law, if the victim is a male. Murdering a male due to their sex should be no less illegal.
Of course murdering someone due to their sex is illegal if the victim is male, it's murder
It’s always illegal to murder someone it just sets the circumstance when a crime can also be considered a hate crime.
Then we wrap back around to the start. That would only be true if there were a commensurate killings based on misandry. You keep jumping back and forth between perpetrators and victims. The lawmakers saw an issue and created a law to target that issue. If you have evidence that they're ignoring them feel free to show it, but nothing about this law is sexist on the face of it.
I would have to disagree. The quantity is irrelevant, the existence of the hate crime is all that really matters.
I can understand what they are doing here (bringing attention to the rampant mysogony), but I do think that could have been done better by having it be a hate crime law with a definition on sex/gender as the motivation, but call it out or name it to address the rampant mysogony.
But a hate crime is a hate crime, and should be treated as a hate crime regardless.
Edit: Just to say, I don't get the impression that what I suggested is the case here, but maybe I'm misinterpreting things. Feel free to point out if it addresses hate crimes based on identity more generally, I'd be happy to hear it. Doesnt seem to be the case from the article though.
To take the example to its most extreme, you believe that a law that focuses on something that does happen regularly (in my country it's the leading cause of murder in women) should be expanded to something that happens rarely. And the reason is optics? Am I misinterpreting your point?
Let's try it this way.
Hate crimes based on sexual orientation occur many times more often than those based on gender expression.
By your logic, we don't need hate crimes based on gender expression.
Hate crimes based on sexual identity are drastically higher for black people than Hispanic or white people.
By your logic we would only need to have hate crime legislation for sexual orientation of black people.
Does that make more sense to you as to why I say a hate crime is a hate crime?
You are saying that only the more frequent crimes require legislation.
I am saying the particulars (sexual identity, gender, race) aren't as relevant as the fact that its a hate-based crime. How often it happens doesnt matter. The fact that its based on hate is what matters.
You're unduly expanding the scope of the argument. I'm just arguing that laws should be based in reality and not based on how it makes people feel about them, and the reality is that the leading cause of murders in women are based on misogyny. The same is not true for men and thus the expansion of hate crimes doesn't need to be extended to them. I never once suggested only the most prevalent hate crimes should be put forward in exclusion of others. We should start from a standard of not expanding hate crimes unnecessarily and move forward from there.
No, I'm contextualizing.
Frequency, irrelevant.
And in reality, murdering anyone based on who they are born as is an entirely different thing than anything else.
The same WHAT.
You are referring to frequency. Repeatedly. I'm sorry, but either there is a fundamental language barrier at play, or I can only consider you as being incredibly exclusionary.
The gender identity of the person should have zero bearing on this. The fact that its a crime based on hate of someone's gender identity should.
Thats it. Full stop.
We will simply keep going in circles until you explain why frequency is irrelevant.
See my comment full of examples of why.
If you need further explanation than that, I don't know what to tell you. I hope one day you expand your view to accept that others can be at risk, and are no less at risk because others like them aren't killed more often.
Even having to write that sentence seems absolutely insane to me.
Enjoy your day. I'm done.
Thank you for staying the course here, I agree wholeheartedly that the frequency should not affect which hate crimes are illegal.
Yes.
Frequency isnt relevant.
No.... And I don't understand how youre arriving at that in any way, shape, or form.
It would seem you are completely, and I have no idea where you are misinterpreting things so wildly to suggest the reason is optics for me to even begin to clarify.
The reason I landed on optics is because no one has laid out an argument for any other reason. If you have one I'd love to see it. Simply asserting that frequency is irrelevant doesn't prove it.
I made another comment to explain in a different way.
Correct. Murdering a male should be just as illegal as murdering a female.
It's like you can't read past my first sentence. Nothing you've said has shown any light on how this is a sexist law. We're both clear in the fact that you don't like it, but that isn't the barrier in front of you.
It's because nothing else you're saying is worth responding to.
The rates of which gender is killed more should have no bearing on whether killing the less targeted gender, just because of their gender, is a hate crime.
A hate crime is committed when someone targets a person because they belong to a specific group.
But I bet you also think it's impossible to be racist against white people.