Pragmatic Leftist Theory
The neolibs are too far right. The tankies are doing whatever that is. Where's the space for the people who want fully-automated-luxury-gay-space-communism, but realize that it's gonna take a while and there are lots of steps between now and then? Here. This is that space.
Here, people should endeavor to discuss and devise practical, actionable leftist action. Vote lesser evil while you build grassroots coalitions. Unionize your workplace. Participate in SRAs. Build cohesion your local community. Educate the proletariat.
This is a place for practical people to develop practical plans to implement stable, incremental improvement.
If you're dead-set on drumming up all 18,453 True Leftists® into spontaneous Revolution, go somewhere else. The grown ups are talking.
Rules:
-1. Don't be a dick. Racism, sexism, other assorted bigotries, you know the drill. At least try to default to mutually respectful discussion. We're all on the same side here, unless you aren't, in which case kindly leave.
-2. Don't be a tankie. Yes I'm sure you have an extensive knowledge of century-old theory. There's been a century of history since then. Things didn't shake out as expected, maybe consider the possibility that a different angle of attack might be more effective in light of new data.
-3. Be practical. No one on the left benefits from counterproductive actions. This is a space informed by, not enslaved to, ideology. Promoting actions that are fundamentally untenable in the system in question, because they fulfill a sense of ideological purity, is a bad look. Don't do that.
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It’s not the limit of human civilization. We will solve more problems, which will make more and bigger problems, on and on until we eventually kill the world or ourselves or both.
I know doom is your thing, and I absolutely don't blame you, but would you care to receive a measured bit of hopeposting in these trying times?
The times are always trying.
The hope is always false.
Unless your message comes with a hundred acres of remote land with a big stand of oak it will fall on deaf ears.
Ah, no worries then. Didn't want to bombard you with a hopepost if it was just going to annoy you, is all. I know how it is to want to talk about things are fucked and getting irritated by some toxic positivity motherfucker.
I listened to Barack Obama’s interview on the last episode of Marc Maron’s podcast desperately sifting for anything that might make me think differently but it was just the same dumb platitudes I’ve been hearing my entire life, ignorant of human nature and all of history.
I was thinking more along the lines of:
As recently as the 17th century AD, human civilization was still woefully ignorant of even the most basic cause-and-effect even in the core activity of survival of civilized societies - agriculture - not just ordinary folk, but all the way up to literal academics. As recently as the late 19th century, immensely incorrect notions still prevailed - again, amongst academics, not just John Johnson from Iowa - on how health, nutrition, and hereditary inheritance worked. Environmentalism, likewise, does not really predate the 20th century AD, and was not mainstream, even amongst academics, until the middle of the 20th century AD. Understanding the world through the lens of the scientific method and observable reality, as well as the notion of universal humanity, pluralism, and sustainability in the face of human capacity for effecting change on systems we do not wholly control, is a very recent development with no real precedent in human history that we are still culturally adjusting to - and on a global scale, for that matter. That we are acutely aware of these problems, simply as well-informed laymen, is part of a broader, if gradual, shift towards perceiving human society through these lenses.
It's not "THE ARC OF HISTORY IS LONG BUT BENDS TOWARDS JUSTICE", but more of a "There are still generations yet-alive who grew up inundated with the idea that reality, as we semi-educated folk understand it, was utter poppycock, and they had a thousand generations of human idiots before them to reinforce their beliefs. Now we have, for the first time in human history, generations growing up in an era where that basic idiocy is being disputed." sort of thing.
Might not be a shining beacon in the dark, but I like to think it's an ember amongst the tinder.
Obama's great gift was being an idiot-whisperer without being an idiot or sounding like an idiot himself. He can nail the broadest points, but he rarely speaks about complex issues with the depth necessary for folks like us who spend too much time worrying about this civilization of billions of people instead of our favorite brand names - we're not his audience. The people with just a modicum of decency, but a deficit of conscientious awareness, are his audience.
No cause I’m sure we’ll screw this up, too.
Again, not the same problems, just more, bigger, and less solvable problems.
Even if some or even most of us understand it we are dealing with multiple orders of magnitude more filthy, infectious, greedy, sanctimonious, nostalgic apes who we have to convince not to kill ourselves, our planet, or both.
If our Paleolithic brains can’t fathom the billions of miles between here and Jupiter, how are we supposed to fathom trillions of dollars or billions of people?
I have no trust in people because even the very few I expose myself to are insufferable save less than a handful.
We aren’t going to get better as a species without selective pressure which is not happening.
ETA: Best case scenario we end up like that planet in the fourth or fifth Foundation novel where it’s like ten people on the entire place and everything is maintained by robots.
It's possible to comprehend things we wouldn't otherwise be able to through the use of models and frameworks that help us make sense of things.
An example I would give is the atom. I'm a scientist, so I understand atoms pretty well, but if I think about it too hard, then it becomes clear that I don't really understand them — "an atom" is just an abstract concept that has no perceivable connection to anything in my life that I can make sense of.
However, by learning these abstract models, we can then use them to make sense of larger, more complex phenomena. 100 years ago, we didn't know what vitamin C was, which meant that Arctic explorers struggled to understand why fresh meat prevented scurvy where lime juice did not (lime juice has much lower vitamin C content than lemon juice, especially when processed in the manner it was). Now, we understand that vitamin C is a molecule that degrades easily, and that it's necessary for the conversation of proline to hydroxyproline, an essential component of collagen. This explains why scurvy causes the symptoms it does: insufficient vitamin C → insufficient collagen →deterioration of connective tissues
After travelling through the process of continually creating new models that contain the sum of the previous models, continually moving upwards in complexity, we have arrived at a point where this knowledge does have concrete, real impact on the world. I had a friend in college who got mild scurvy due to eating too much processed food, and they solved it by taking a multivitamin regularly (though eating the occasional vegetable would have been ideal). I know about the nitty gritty of how scurvy happens because I'm a biochemist who likes to nerd out about this stuff, but my friend wasn't.
It's hard to tell how much knowledge is enough (and indeed, we thought we had solved scurvy in 1747, when James Lind showed that citrus juice was an effective cure (he was using lemon juice, and he nor the people who came after him realised that limes would not work as well). However, this is a significant example of how progress is possible, even if it takes a super long time and requires the integration of many different models of thinking. Sometimes a field may stall for a while because it requires integrated knowledge from a different field move to the next hierarchical level of understanding. This may require either waiting for those other fields to progress, someone who is doing interdisciplinary work and is well situated to recognise when perspectives from different fields could be valuable, or both of these things.
We don't need to be able to understand trillions of dollar, or billions of people all at once. We can understand it in stages. In terms of getting our head around the vast number of people on this planet, the existence of countries can be seen as an attempt towards that. A flawed attempt, perhaps, but it does help to make things more manageable. And each level of understanding has nested structures within it: my country has almost 70 million people in it, which is just as incomprehensible to me as 8 billion. However, this is why countries are broken down into smaller levels of governance, which can reach a level that is comprehensible by the average person.
I'm not saying that this system is working; it very much isn't — we are very much on the same page on that front. However, there are instances where we've been able to make sense of things that would otherwise be unfathomable. 150 years ago, "citrus juice prevents scurvy" was a flawed model, but we improved on that until we found a system of models that worked. That's where we're at with politics and economics. I don't honestly believe that I'll live to see a world where we get that working, but I do believe it's possible. A large part of why I'm still around is because I feel like there are things I can do that will help get us closer towards a working understanding of things — to iterate towards something better than what we have now, even if actually getting it to work will take longer than my lifetime.
Regardless of the possibility of hope though, I'm glad you're here with us. I don't know what compels you to stick around, but I'm glad you're here nonetheless. Personally, I think I am hopeful about the future because I need to be, because it's the only thing that stops me from imploding when I look around at how awful things are. I don't presume to be able to convince you towards hope and I hope that my comment doesn't come across like that's my intention. We don't need to agree on that front (and like I say, my own hope is arguably pretty irrational, even if I think the objective argument for the nebulous possibility of progress is strong). Right now, I'm just glad you exist because I appreciate not having to spend words talking about how awful everything is — you get it. Hope or no, that makes me feel a little less alone.
Okay now get eight to ten fucking Billie psychotic apes to understand the atom. And then the universe. And then that there’s eight to ten billion other assholes just like them.
Never gonna happen. Not in my lifetime. I’d rather fuck off and die.
I mean, if most of us end up understanding it, the number of people who don't literally can't be orders of magnitude more.
Same way we managed to understand agricultural processes before we actually understood biology - shorthand.
And for that matter, shit, man, I can't fathom how a refrigerator works, yet that doesn't mean that I can't participate in a fridge-having society. It just means that, as one of the people who doesn't get it, I need to be socially conditioned to understand that my ignorant opinion doesn't mean jack when the fridge breaks and knowledgeable folk are trying to repair or jury-rig it.
I mean, the fact that any significant number of us understand the problems and necessary solutions points towards that the essential problem is not genetic, but societal. It is not our nature that is killing us, though that is certainly not without its flaws; it is nurture - the way human society has developed and taught generations upon generations how to think. Broken thinking in families and social circles that perpetuates itself and is eradicated only with social pressure and the passing of generations.
And, to be fair to human society, growing up in a totally natural milieu would also end up developing extremely flawed thought processes simply because of how much that happens that is not readily observable without specialized tools. And again, to be fair to human society, many of the things we struggle with now are maladaptive traits, things which once helped us simply because they were less bad than the alternative. Like sickle-cell genes helping prevent malaria, or growing up poor and becoming fond of nutritionless ketchup sandwiches out of necessity. Tribes developing distrust and tribalist thinking because of a low ability to gather information about distant tribes and the people who inhabit them helps preserve the tribe - it starts as an advantage, even if a flawed one, to prevent bad actors from destroying the tribe. But as other tribes develop tools to gather information about distant tribes and people, that same tribalism becomes a disadvantage in comparison with tribes that move towards a greater openness to others.
Human society can change. Human society has changed, radically, even just in the past few centuries. And as human society changes, so too do human beings. We're on the cutting edge here in understanding these problems because we had the right environment - whether pulled towards understanding by positive influences, or simply pushed away from idiocy by negative influences - to develop in such a way, not because we have fantastic genes that the rest of humanity lacks. Certainly not me, at least; I'm a genetic mess, much like a pug (only handsome instead of ugly-cute). Our environments can be extended to a broader swathe of people - and are being extended so, even just as prior generations die off along with their stubborn ideas of magic salt circles and devil-marked cats.
We will never be rid of idiocy in its entirety - shit, you and I both probably have at least a few idiotic ideas ourselves, despite lacking many of the more severe ones which damage modern society - but a world of people who, by and large, have the same thinking on sustainability, pluralism, expertise, and observable reality that we do is not a pipe dream. It is a real - if fragile - hope that we have only just, as a civilization, acquired the tools to nurture.
The sapling is there. We must help it grow. The ember is there. We must help it catch.
I’ve been watching the sapling die and the flame fade for too long believe any of that.
And even if I did it won’t ever happen in my lifetime and I don’t like people enough to want to help. I just want to be left alone.
I hope you get your wish, genuinely. Solitude is sometimes the only way we have of dealing with this fucked world.
I don't know what you expected from Barack Obama lol
Hope springs eternal no matter how hard I try to kill it.
I was mostly listening to see if Marc would freak out about the obvious BS but people are awful and that didn’t happen.