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this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2025
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Do not cut your dog open to prove a false dichotomy.
What do you want to know about the efficiency of killing plants?
Calories are not "lost" by their ingestion and utility. You are here, having fun typing your answers because of the calories you have ingested and used.
Harvest.
Animals taste good and are a natural, efficient source of nutrition.
Calories are not "lost" when they are ingested and used.
When you pay taxes to maintain civil services, that money goes to buy books, pay firefighters and maintain roads. The money is not "lost", it was used.
I'm very happy you're learning about factory farming, I'm well aware of its problems. Factory farming is part of why I live abroad. Are you from the US?
India is a wonderful country and you may want to consider living there, I was a very happy vegan in India.
I’m just trying to explain trophic energy loss, not get in the middle of this- the number of calories that a pig eats during its lifetime is much smaller than the calories we can get from its meat. These calories aren’t “lost,” but they are used by the pig to support its growth, function, and movement. If we ate the soybeans used to feed it instead, we’d need to harvest fewer plants, because it’s more efficient to just get the calories from the plants than it is to also support an additional animal.
Thank you, context is valuable.
Calories are not "lost" when eaten, they are reallocated.
Efficiency also depends on context. Should you dig a hole manually or with a backhoe?
How big is the hole, how was the backhoe built, how far away is it, who owns it, what is its fuel, and so on.
"the crops you grew harvested and fed to the non human animal were calories that did not end up in the human"
Yes, this is the aforementioned reallocation of calories.
'If someone gave you the choice today to be killed in your sleep...and then remove your memory...would you say yes?"
Nah. Thank you, though.
Good we agree on the second point, so if you wouldnt want to be killed in your sleep, and it would be murder to do it against your will, what is so different about a cow a chicken a pig a fish that makes it ok to kill them when they dont want to or need to die for your taste preference.
You've been veering into misinformation territory for a while now. Please only address comment content going forward, rather than your assumptions or anxieties.
"...what is so different about a cow a chicken a pig a fish that makes it ok to kill them..."
Nothing.
I do not think it's okay to kill animals, humans included.
If you have a direct question, ask it. No more of your straw men or misinformation.
If I've said something thats misinformation I'd like you to point it out so that I can learn, otherwise I'm just going to keep repeating it elsewhere because I haven't knowingly said anything false
Thank you.
Drawing conclusions on your own unsubstantiated conclusion that I think killing animals is "ok" because I eat animals is misinformation.
You are following your own prejudices and fabricating topics rather than addressing a civil conversation.
You are wrong again.
If you have a direct question, ask it. No more of your straw men, assumptions, or misinformation.
How am I wrong you've said you eat other animals, eating animals requires killing them so you must think its ok to kill them
"How am I wrong"
You are making assumptions and arguing against your own assumptions while pretending you are arguing against others.
Define "you must think its ok to kill them" without your prejudice or assumptions. Base your definition on the comments you are responding to.
"you obviously think its morally ok."
It's obvious to you because it's your own opinion, not mine.
Harvesting animals for food is appropriate and natural.
No misinformation, remember. You may ask community members questions but are not allowed to make up their answers for them.
Humans are an animal, under what conditions would you find it acceptable to harvest humans for food? Feel free to give a difference answer but I'm going to preempt three common responses I get: 1. its never ok to kill and eat a human even when you're starving: then what is so different about cows pigs chickens that makes it ok to do to them, when we have thousands of edible plant species, 2: its ok to eat humans if they are already dead and you're starving: ok then is that the situation you find yourself in w/ regards to eating other species? 3: its ok to kill and eat humans in a survival situation in the name of self defense: ok again are you in a life or death situation, are there not bread rice beans pasta fruit and veg for you to get nutrients from?
"are there not bread rice beans pasta fruit and veg?"
In the life or death survival situations you are making up?
No, there are not.
this is a misunderstanding of the responses, the question of "when is cannibalism justified" is used here to draw parallels to when eating flesh of other species is justified, if you wouldnt do it to a human in the same situation why would you do it to a cow pig chicken fish duck goose etc
That isn't a misunderstanding, you just didn't get the answer you wanted.
There's some complexity here. Consider that farmland only accounts for about 7% of the Earth's total land. Pasture land, only suitable for feeding animals and not raising crops, is about 25% of the Earth's total land.
It's foolish to have a human grow crops to feed animals, totally agreed. That makes no sense. However, for the 25% of land that's only suitable for grazing ruminants, a human does not have to grow the crop, the animal eats something a human can't eat. And that's the power of ruminant nutrition
India is amazing in this respect, their shepherding was striking. Seeing the attitude of cattle in India gainly eat the dozens of native plant varieties everywhere was fascinating compared to other countries' cattle chewing their cud.
Yeah. I did omnivore, I did vegan, now I'm doing something even more niche, carnivore (which nobody likes).
The world has lots of options and perspectives, better to see a lifestyle you like and adopt it rather then trying to change everyone around you.
How long have you been meat-exclusive?
"better to see a lifestyle you like and adopt it rather then trying to change everyone around you."
couldn't agree more.
9 months, then I feel off the wagon pizza and rice and the like, now I'm back on the wagon.
I couldn't feel better, things that always hurt stopped hurting. The worst thing is I know I'd feel better when would get back on the wagon but it's so easy to normalize all the aches and pains of life.
Please feel free to be vague or non-answery, I'm just curious.
What things used to hurt and no longer hurt? What is your daily diet? Absolutely zero fiber? What is the broad diet picture before and after?
No worries, I have a community oh here about it
Just from when I fell off the wagon last time and when I started up again:
These pains were not minor, they were significant detractors to my life. The shoulder injury was from working out, and it hadn't healed since I fell off the wagon. But within a week of getting back on the wagon it went away
My gym trainer has remarked that I have a lot more energy now, he could notice when I switched.
Daily diet: ground beef and eggs, variety when I have social means, for treats I eat cheese
Yeah, zero fibre, no issues pooping I swear.
Broad diet picture: before omnivore lots of carbs, addicted eating patterns lots of snacks.
After carnivore: tend to one big meal a day, no desire for snacks, food noise is very muted. Shooting for zero carbohydrates.
"no issues pooping I swear"
Oh no worries haha, I went carnivore for a while in China. Fat helps in evacuation.
Carbs = Crazy naptime for me.
First week I stopped eating carbs was pretty wild, first fasting moreso, omni omad with occasional fasting is my routine now.
Do you just put ground beef into fried eggs or omelets? Do you try to make different dishes?
I basically make the one dish at home. 350g of ground beef, browned, add in 6 eggs, stir, delicious bowl of fatty protein.
I'm impressed that you can go in and out of fasting, it's a great skill to have!
Thanks, I'm very interested in how different diets affect human metabolism, and since I have one at my disposal, you know?
There are so many diets with such interesting and radically different effects, I have to try all of them.
And if I happen to be Indian vegan and then visit China next? Uh yeah, beer-fried duck is back on the menu.
We live so briefly, and the world is so vast.
When I went carni in China, there was this guy on my walk home selling yak jerky, which is still by far no contest my favorite jerky, and I went from a snack every other day to bags of that stuff for months.
I was like hey, good enough for hundreds of generations of mongolians...and dang are the mongolians correct.
That's my hobby too. Fat metabolism appears to be simply the best metabolic state for humans. So any low carb/keto diet would be the most indicated.
yes thats why I said 10-30%, if you account for the fact these animals often eat human inedible crops, the efficiency raises from 10% to 30% (edit: 35% just rechecked the numbers)
You can see the figures and calculations here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzj1OcHzjOg