this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2025
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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (2 children)

The only credible war criminal accusation towards Obama that comes to mind is the practice of 'double-tapping' which, at the very least, is something that Obama deserves a trial in the Hague for, even if I wouldn't necessarily bet on the outcome even with an impartial court.

Every other major accusation I've seen stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of 'war crime' as 'anything that's bad'.

[–] Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

He gets tons of flak for his heavy use of drone attacks - which is completely valid - but people usually ignore that:

  • a) The reason we know those numbers is because Obama's administration put strict reporting policies on drone usage in place that included strikes that weren't even tracked under previous stats. A lot of those drone strikes were egregious, yes, but also are only public knowledge because he designed a system to be held accountable.
  • b) Trump removed those reporting policies during his first term, then proceeded to order more drone strikes than Obama. Not saying that Obama's good because Trump is worse, but the reported numbers are back to being fucking lies and those lies make Obama look worse.
  • c) Drone warfare technology started coming into its own around when Obama was elected, and he was stuck with multiple unpopular wars and an openly hostile Republican opposition who would blame any American casualties on him, so of course he used drones more than previous presidents.
[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Every other major accusation I've seen stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of 'war crime' as 'anything that's bad'.

Okay let's see:

  • Everything about the drone strikes other than double-tapping. See: all those weddings he bombed.

  • Supporting Saudi Arabia's war crime-riddled intervention in Yemen.

  • Everything to do with Guantanamo bay.

  • Everything to do with Israel.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Everything about the drone strikes other than double-tapping. See: all those weddings he bombed.

Acceptance of collateral damage is a well-established principle in international law. While bombing weddings has a clear argument with regards to the immorality of it, it would be difficult to argue that it's a war crime to target enemy combatants simply because they're in a civilian context. As the civilian casualty ratio of the drone strikes, as assessed by outside and critical sources, was around 15%-20%, which fits pre-drone strike numbers, it would be extremely difficult to make any serious argument that the drone strikes were exceptionally careless about collateral damage relative to the military gain by current standards and thus constitute a war crime.

Again, I reiterate: "Every other major accusation I’ve seen stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of ‘war crime’ as ‘anything that’s bad’."

Supporting Saudi Arabia’s war crime-riddled intervention in Yemen.

Selling weapons is not a war crime.

Again, I reiterate: "Every other major accusation I’ve seen stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of ‘war crime’ as ‘anything that’s bad’."

Everything to do with Guantanamo bay.

You mean... trying to close it, restoring the standards to that of an ordinary prison instead of a torture camp, and releasing the vast majority of the prisoners when Congress refused to let him close it?

Everything to do with Israel.

If you think the president, and for that matter one of the least pro-Israel presidents since I've been alive could have easily "just done more" to prevent Israeli war crimes, you're out of your gourd.

Again, I reiterate: "Every other major accusation I’ve seen stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of ‘war crime’ as ‘anything that’s bad’."

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Acceptance of collateral damage is a well-established principle in international law.

If there's a military purpose proportional to the damage inflicted. Bombing a wedding because a few attendants are enemy combatants is not that.

it would be extremely difficult to make any serious argument that the drone strikes were exceptionally careless about collateral damage relative to the military gain by current standards and thus constitute a war crime.

That would simply mean only some were war crimes compared to a majority that were legal. Even if you're hitting one wedding for every nine enemy training camps, that one wedding is still a war crime. Also, I'd like to point out that the CIA is literally on record claiming international law is inapplicable to their drone strikes (back when they were still done by the CIA). Those are not the words of people not committing war crimes.

The CIA's general counsel, Stephen Preston, in a speech entitled "CIA and the Rule of Law" at Harvard Law School on 10 April 2012, claimed the agency was not bound by the laws of war

Selling weapons is not a war crime.

Which is not the only thing America was doing under Obama.

This support involves aerial refueling, which allows coalition aircraft to spend more time over Yemen, and allowing some coalition members to home base aircraft instead of transferring them to Saudi Arabia

In October 2016, Reuters obtained documents under the Freedom of Information Act showing officials had warned that the United States could be implicated in war crimes for its support of Saudi Arabia's intervention.

According to a March 2016 Human Rights Watch assessment, the U.S. involvement in certain military actions, including as target selection and aerial refueling during Saudi air raids "may make US forces jointly responsible for laws-of-war violations by coalition forces".

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Saudi_Arabian%E2%80%93led_operations_in_Yemen

Sounds real war crime-y to me.

You mean... trying to close it, restoring the standards to that of an ordinary prison instead of a torture camp, and releasing the vast majority of the prisoners when Congress refused to let him close it?

Obama did a lot to improve the conditions at Guantanamo bay, but still:

The report stated the United States violated international law, particularly the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, that the Bush Administration could not try such prisoners as enemy combatants in a military tribunal and could not deny them access to the evidence used against them.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#International_law

This is one thing Obama didn't change to my knowledge. See also:

In March 2009, the administration announced that it would no longer refer to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay as enemy combatants, but it also asserted that the president had the authority to detain terrorism suspects there without criminal charges.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Barack_Obama#Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

This one is on the light end to be fair, but still a war crime.

If you think the president, and for that matter one of the least pro-Israel presidents since I've been alive could have easily "just done more" to prevent Israeli war crimes, you're out of your gourd.

I mean, Reagan did it, literally with a phone call. US presidents can "just do more" to prevent Israeli war crimes that they fund, arm and protect. Also least pro-Israel in what way? The only instance of him going against Israel that I know of is JCPOA, which does nothing to absolve him of Israel's war crimes in Palestine.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

If there’s a military purpose proportional to the damage inflicted. Bombing a wedding because a few attendants are enemy combatants is not that.

Killing enemy combatants isn't a military purpose?

When drone strikes of weddings are discussed, individuals are targeted while the wedding is ongoing, the wedding itself isn't being fucking carpet bombed.

That would simply mean only some were war crimes compared to a majority that were legal. Even if you’re hitting one wedding for every nine enemy training camps, that one wedding is still a war crime.

Again, the wedding is only a war crime if the creation of civilian damage is excessive in comparison to the intended military damage inflicted. Considering that the civilian casualty ratio of drone strikes was not significantly different from prior non-drone military action, it would be a very fucking tough sell.

Also, I’d like to point out that the CIA is literally on record claiming international law is inapplicable to their drone strikes (back when they were still done by the CIA). Those are not the words of people not committing war crimes.

The CIA is absolutely committing war crimes - that's not the same as saying Obama is a war criminal. The CIA, in fact, has repeatedly and blatantly violated direct orders from the executive, to the point there was a whole hearing over it during the Obama administration.

Sounds real war crime-y to me.

I would have objected, but I read the cited source in the wiki article

For instance, one of the emails made a specific reference to a 2013 ruling from the war crimes trial of former Liberian president Charles Taylor that significantly widened the international legal definition of aiding and abetting such crimes.

The ruling found that "practical assistance, encouragement or moral support" is sufficient to determine liability for war crimes. Prosecutors do not have to prove a defendant participated in a specific crime, the U.N.-backed court found.

That makes the accusation of war crimes more credible over supplying the Saudis against Yemen. I concede that there is a valid argument there, though I would contend that the discussion involved is still primarily cautious and over there being an argument for liability, rather than a clear-cut case that assistance to a war-crime committing belligerent, even with exhortation to show greater restraint and precision, was absolutely without question a war crime.

... and also that that ruling is startlingly broad.

This is one thing Obama didn’t change to my knowledge.

The citation is over the Bush Administration, and explicitly says as much. The Obama administration performed an extensive review of prisoners and changes of policy, resulting in some being tried, many being released, and those retained retained under internationally agreed-upon standards for military detention under the laws of war.

This one is on the light end to be fair, but still a war crime.

The DOJ claiming the president has the power to do something he hasn't and did not do (as Obama added no detainees to Gitmo) is a war crime?

I mean, Reagan did it, literally with a phone call.

If I hear this shit take on Lemmy one more time, I'm going to fucking explode. In other words, please attend my funeral to be held within the next week (closed casket).

US presidents can “just do more” to prevent Israeli war crimes that they fund, arm and protect.

Would you like to remind me what the powers of the US president are, again?

Also least pro-Israel in what way? The only instance of him going against Israel that I know of is JCPOA, which does nothing to absolve him of Israel’s war crimes in Palestine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Obama_administration_(2009%E2%80%932017)