this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2025
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Too long, didn't read. I have a medical condition that requires a higher intake of choline or trimethylglycine than the advised 550mg.
Failure to do so makes me feel terrible, get weak and have dangerously low cholesterol.
Given the advised quantity is impossible to achive, I'd never have a chance so you can spare the vegan preaching
You can take choline supplements, so it's not impossible. Vegan preaching will continue. The assumption here that you're not sharing is that you want some magical "natural diet" while living a completely unnatural life. You have a medical condition, which was discovered thanks to modern medical science, modern biology and chemistry, and yet you imagine that you must obtain some "natural sources" as if that's an enchanted biological material instead of the very obvious: you're OK with sacrificing sentient beings for your fantasy of "natural independence from modernity".
Oh, and factory farming is responsible for most of the animal products. That's part of your fantasy issue. Let's put it this way. If there were no factory farms, not only are you statistically unlikely to get your hands on eggs and livers, but if you had hens, you could afford only a small number of hens and your economic situation would pressure you to sell the eggs, not to consume them.
Take the supplements.
If you want to go full "primitivist", then understand first that the humans as "primitives" can only survive as tiny populations, a fraction of how many humans we have today. You would've probably died as a natural abortion or in childhood, just like me.
It's bean a huge displeasure to talk to you, I hope that you remember me.
I also have medical and economic issues that make it unreasonable to be completely vegan, but that doesn't mean the world shouldn't shift towards it. Factory farming isn't a practice needed to help my conditions, and I doubt you benefit from it either. They could probably use humane and sustainable methods to provide plenty of meat/dairy for medical purposes and pet foods.
And besides, according to this chart, soybeans have higher choline content than most meats. Google also says there's a shitton of trimethylglycine in wheat. And both come in supplement form. (Not sure how they make them though, so maybe not vegan.)
Coeliac disease and a broken folate cycle pretty much makes it impossible.
By the chart, the average male would need to consume about 3 cups of soybeans per day? I'd probably be up for double that. If it's even possible to eat 6 cups of soy bean per day, you'd likely soon end up with copper toxicity or toxic amounts of some metals if your gut can even digest it. In addition to all the other balanced food you'd have to eat, would be unsustainable.
We don't have factory farming here
Factory farming exists pretty much everywhere though. If just 50% of people reduced their meat intake to an occasional treat, that would go a long way to reducing suffering, improving sustainability, and increasing the availability and affordability of vegan products. That doesn't mean that any given individual needs to be vegan, just that encouraging widespread veganism is beneficial to everyone.
I'm sorry if my post came off as "Just eat s bunch of soy beans," because that isn't what I meant. Rather, it seems viable to eat a lot of plants and supplement with animal products where needed, especially given that there's also a pill form.
Also I don't think the 550mg figure is meant to be a recommended minimum intake, but rather a figure where it's impossible to be deficient. It's my understanding that a minimum intake of choline hasn't been established. From Wikipedia:
I had a look into factory farming here. Seems to only apply to caged chickens and some pork. I only buy free range eggs, grass fed meat and don't really eat pork
What is this condition you have?
As discussed in the chart link in the comment above, a genetically broken folate cycle requires high quantities of choline and trimethylglycine
If you didn't have this condition, then would you make the switch?
Having this issue makes me aware ADIs can't be maintained for an average person, for a single nutrient, so I am not convinced it'd be healthy long term or during development. Looking at other nutrients like amino acids would probably be a similar story
So really, you just have anti-vegan bias. In actuality plant-based diets consistently show themselves to be among the most health promoting, and longevity promoting. Also, multi-generational vegans exist now days. It's established that plant-based diets are entirely appropriate for all stages of life, even pregnancy and childhood.
If even body builders have no problem meeting their nutritional needs on plants, do you really think it would be so hard to get all your choline and tmg on plants? Plenty of people here have shown you there is no shortage of options. In your dismissals of these attempts to help, one of the major factors you're ignoring is that no one eats a single ingredient as their food source. So even if you're not quite eating enough soybeans to reach a benchmark, you also have to keep in mind that these nutrients are in a wide variety of foods, and you'd most likely be getting doses of it from virtually everything you eat.
And also as pointed out, supplements are readily available. Like if I had your condition, I would not trust any diet to meet my choline needs, and would supplement anyway. And if I did, then why not make it a plant-based supplement?
So you can do this, and frankly quite easily. Here's the thing: you're getting hyperfocused on raw numbers. You can't actually know that a thing works until you put it to the test. When I went vegan I was also really nervous that, what if there is something in animal products that I need to live, and I'll die if I stop eating them?! I tried anyway, found out through real experience that plants do meet all my needs, and made me feel significantly better in the process at that.
That was when I understood the sheer amount of societal animal ag propaganda that had been drilled into me all my life, that it was all nonsense, and that experience was a liberation in and of itself.
Oh, and you said in another comment that you don't have factory farming where you live? Judging by your server, are you from Australia? Then you should definitely watch Dominion, because you absolutely do have factory farming, and you are definitely contributing to it.
this is no longer the position of the academy.
There are so many popups on your "US News" source I can't even read it. The second link is just selling a book. The third link completely misquotes the Australian source that states b12 supplementation is necessary and careful planning is required to meet basic nutritional needs. B12 is an essential component of the folate cycle so that's another negative for me.
All the studies I have read on veganism's benefits have been impacted by serious inconsistencies between the vegan and control groups, such as people who eat vegan carefully planning their diet and wanting to eat healthy. Control groups essentially always contain people who eat shit and don't care. Additionally, practically all consider lower or loss of body fat a core focus or benefit which is a clear indicator populations are not being compared correctly. Of course health conscious people will have lower bodyweight, lower fat. As would people getting inadequate nutrition.
Dietary studies are the most unreliable field of science. Broad generalisations are made, even single food items are difficult to study and worst of all, everyone is assumed to react the same to a given diet
We have all these diverse people who come from long lineages of specialised genetics for eating specific local foods. There is no single diet appropriate for everyone.
To even begin to have a useful study, you'd need to compare people of similar genetics, who eat planned, considered and healthy diets. Even then it's going to be problematic with supplement use and other factors needing correcting.
I have seen a few good Nordic diet studies, again applicable to only their genetics, but vegan diets were not compared.
Vegans are a very small subset of the population who are health conscious and meticulous, very difficult to find a fair control. Same with microplastics and nanoplastics, we don't have valid control groups as everyone has been exposed.
I'd much rather continue consuming a healthy, balanced ancestral diet.
Alright, if we're in low-effort territory here, I'm just gonna quick-fire these off.
Giving up animal products is one of the most important, impactful, and meaningful decisions you have a chance to make, and the only thing getting in the way is your own prejudice and devaluing of other living beings.
this is a bare faced gish gallop
Thanks for the discussion but I am done