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Don't blame Satan if things don't work out. It's God's plan right? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 1 month ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

traditionally, determinism is not compatible with moral responsibility since all actions are predetermined and it is not obvious that one can be held morally responsible for them.

this is nonsense. You're still making choices, just because you would've made those choices no matter what doesn't mean your choices aren't punishable or your fault. It's not that you didn't have a choice, it's that you would've made that decision no matter what based on the laws of physics. These are not incompatible ideas, and I don't get why people struggle with this. It's very straightforward.

to the problem of the theist test, standard christian doctrine is that your fate in heaven is predetermined and individuals have been pre-chosen by god (theological term is ‘the elect’). in that sense, your worldly life is not a ‘test’, but the idea is that the holy spirit reveals god to those who have been selected.

this is also nonsense, the point was that it was a test, god should already know who's going to be selected, if there's no free will, this is still all pointless. Why does god need the holy spirit to do all that nonsense if it isn't a test? If it's predetermined, why did god make all these evil people that were just going to be miserable in hell anyway?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

It’s not that you didn’t have a choice, it’s that you would’ve made that decision no matter what based on the laws of physics

in your view, what is the difference between having a forced decision and not having a choice? and why exactly would this forced choice be punishable in the same way a free one would be?

the point was that it was a test, god should already know who’s going to be selected, if there’s no free will, this is still all pointless.

a calvinist would not agree that the point is a test. read up on the 'doctrine of unconditional election' if you are curious. in brief, god makes decisions about who is saved and who isn't not based on conditions they follow in their life, but based on his own purposes and goals.

If it’s predetermined, why did god make all these evil people that were just going to be miserable in hell anyway?

this is the problem of evil, there are numerous responses and the literature is extensive. again, a calvinist would probably say that he created evil people for his glory and grace. notably, jesus dying on the cross for humanity's sins as a display of god's grace does not make sense without the existence of evil.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

in your view, what is the difference between having a forced decision and not having a choice? and why exactly would this forced choice be punishable in the same way a free one would be?

In determinism, you still have free choices, it's just you would've made that choice if time was reversed and played again, nothing changed so why would the result be different? You compared all the options, and decided to make that choice, and if we reversed time, and played it back, you'd still make that decision... but it's not like the universe compelled you to make that decision, nobody FORCED you to make that choice, you still made a decision all on your own, even if we reversed time and you would've made the same one, that changes precisely nothing of importance.

in brief, god makes decisions about who is saved and who isn’t not based on conditions they follow in their life, but based on his own purposes and goals.

then he's just a dickbag putting us all in a world to suffer for fun, when he could just make us all in heaven.

again, a calvinist would probably say that he created evil people for his glory and grace. notably, jesus dying on the cross for humanity’s sins as a display of god’s grace does not make sense without the existence of evil.

yeah it doesn't make any sense. that doesn't actually make it make sense, that's just a vague set of words. So god is a dickbag that needs worship why? Quite frankly like, any decent human being is better than this god, he's just evil.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Quite frankly like, any decent human being is better than this god, he’s just evil.

incidentally, i agree with all this. but what a theist would probably say in response is that if god exists, he defines what evil is. what you perceive as evil is just your perception and can be wrong.

its not a bad argument, but i believe contrarily we have deep moral intuitions and can generally rationalize them in a kantian way, i believe we can make moral judgements independently of god.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

if god exists, he defines what evil is.

There's no way to make babies having cancer moral. There's no version of that god that is any good. If this isn't a test, why give babies cancer?

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