this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2024
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How can I speak for every person? Has it caused someones trauma? Yeah I bet it has. You initially made it sound like you were showing bath pics to every teen-aged first date that came over which would obviously be pretty fucked up.
Yeah we agree, baby pics are fun, I especially like noting family resemblances as everyone ages. My sister made my mom a big set of scrapbooks/albums for each of her kids one year, no naked baby pics were included. They're great fun to look at, highly recommend.
This is the primary issue, without even going into the obvious power dynamic between child and parent when it comes to consent later. Where do a childs rights end and parents begin?
I would suggest that most parents think they're doing great doing it just like it's always been done (i.e. generational trauma) and "they turned out just fine." but there are definitely some intentionally abusive ones too. The child with the intentionally abusive parent is obviously going to have way more trauma.
The "real psychological pain" part makes it look like you're dismissing trauma, just because it's not something you experienced doesn't mean it isn't valid and while intent matters so does the result. I'm sure you specifically are a good parent and you're very conscious of your kids mental headspace but by default I'd say save it for the fiance if you just have to have them.
The real psychological pain comes from the realisation that your parent never really cared about your boundaries.
They'll even give your ITR account OTP to someone who will block you out from it and it will be your fault for trusting them with it, but I guess this example is too irrelevant.
The teenage years are around the time when children start evaluating their own actions and start having their own personality (which is kinda related to the rebellious stage). They realise the power dynamic between them and their parent which they were until then not conscious about.
It is the parents' actions during this time that determines what their evaluation of the past power dynamic will be and so will be their decision of what relationship they will have with their parents once they are financially independent.
So, whether or not the experience is traumatic, your future relationship with your child depends upon how much they care about who sees their pictures.
Cool. Psychology isn't based on your bets.
Again, if we argue that children have to consent to get their photo taken, no one should take any photos of their children below the age where they can do that. That means no baby pictures at all.
You have no evidence of this trauma. You're just guessing.
Spoken like someone who's never been in therapy or studied psychology, people bet and guess and infer stuff all the time; it's a "soft" science for a reason.
Specifically pictures of their genitals, I feel like no baby genital pics is a good default, yes, what a weird hill to die on.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Guessing, inferring, surmising, call it whatever helps you sleep at night. I think of it as erring on the side of safety and respect for my kids. Not having pics of their junk doesn't make my life any worse, there's only downsides for them.
Again, babies don't come out with clothes on. The idea of expecting consent for sending grandparents pictures of what their newborn grandchild looked like when it was just a few seconds old is ridiculous.
And yes, psychology is a soft science. That doesn't mean that you personally can claim that people have been traumatized by this without showing any evidence of it just like you can't claim that people have been traumatized by a Luke Skywalker action figure without showing any evidence of it. You can infer whatever you like. Inferences aren't truth and they are based on personal biases.
Suggesting that because psychology is a soft science, you can make whatever claim about trauma you infer is ridiculous. Where did you get your psychology degree from, anyway?
We're talking about pictures of your kids genitals. What a weird fucking hill to die on. Its your kid, take all the pics you want, probably don't get caught with them on your phone.
It's ok to just say "you know what you might have a point" and walk away sometimes my dude.
And yet I don't think you do have a point without evidence, so I'm not sure why I'd say that.
Again, where did you get your psychology degree from?
I'm sorry... do you think it's illegal to have a photo of a naked baby on your phone?
My point is childhood trauma takes a lot of forms and "good natured" showing naked pictures of your children to potential romantic partners the first time they visit (the thing we were talking about) is undoubtedly traumatic for a portion that experience it. I'm not aware of any specific studies studying the impact of showing nude photos of your children to their potential romantic suitors but I do know that childhood trauma has been studied and has far-reaching, unknown impacts. Even if the victim often doesn't recognize the instance as abuse until much later in life, if ever.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-ptsd/202206/how-childhood-shame-can-affect-our-adult-relationships
https://psychcentral.com/blog/psychology-self/2018/09/childhood-toxic-shame
https://mind.help/news/childhood-humiliation-can-leave-lifelong-scars-warn-mental-health-experts/
I was about halfway through a sociology degree (admittedly as a pretty subpar state university) before I transferred to CS. What'd you study?
They're not something I'd want on my phone obviously.
Sorry... you're saying a baby feels trauma and shame when it has its picture taken and that leads to psychological problems as an adult and creates more trauma when you show that photo to their partner?
Also, virtually every new parent has photos of their baby naked on their phone. And it's legal. I have no idea why you don't think it would be. A nude picture of your own baby is not child porn. No one has ever been put on a sex offender list for having a picture of their child just after it exited the womb on their phone. What a silly thing to say.
Let's just hope you don't rely on Google Drive
It would be legal on Google Drive too. I challenge you to find me one example of a parent getting in legal trouble for having a photo of their baby naked on either their phone or on Google Drive.
Legal trouble is not the only kind of trouble.
I just didn't link a news article because I thought it was widespread enough.
Try "guy loses google account false positive" on Google Search
Google fucking up its detection algorithm is kind of a different issue though, isn't it?
It will still cause you problems if you are reliant on it though.
I am also trying to slowly get enough alternatives that random Google decisions don't cause me misery, but...
Oh yeah, I would never rely on it for plenty of other reasons. I do back up some photos to it, but it's one of multiple backups. I look at it as a redundancy.
"It's not just drive", is my point.
If you mean don't trust Google for anything, I agree with that too. Otherwise, sorry, I guess I don't understand your point.
Well, simply that, a false positive on the drive gets the whole Google account removed. Not just the drive access, but all your past mails (and the future mails you will receive because you are unable to tell others that you had to change your Mail ID), all other accounts you made using said ID become harder to access and same for other Google services (paid or not) that you might be using at that moment.
And you can't even send a user data retrieval request.
You're being willfully obtuse. The trauma and shame comes from the picture being displayed for the parents amusement to potential romantic partners the first time they come over, presumably in their early teens.
Most I've seen are completely swaddled and only their little faces are visible.
Where did you get your law degree?
I mean, I personally agree with that.
Crazier shit has happened and we're not talking about gross little bloody newborns fresh out of the box. In every baby pic I've ever seen (and in the context of this comic); they're bath pics, specifically ones with their junk in it! It's weird, just place some bubbles or a wash cloth strategically or something it's not that difficult fuck.
I don't need a law degree. Unlike you, I have evidence:
https://legal-info.lawyers.com/family-law/child-abuse-and-neglect/baby-pictures-or-child-pornography.html
Evidence?
"It seemed to be."
"They were naked."
"Completely nude your honor."
That's how quickly that can be used against you and I for one don't have that kind of faith in our legal system.
Look, it's your kid you do whatever you want, we could argue back and forth all day, I'm sure you're a decent parent and handle things as appropriately as possible but for anyone else reading this maybe give some consideration to pictures you take of your vulnerable kids and what purpose those pictures serve, some strategic bubbles or a cloth make the picture 100% innocent and it becomes a non-issue.
Much like the trauma claim, can you provide evidence that has ever happened to any parent?
You seem to think you can make any claim you like without evidence and then get indignant about it when you aren't automatically believed.
How could I even find that evidence? I don't have access to court records re custody battles and divorces or therapy notes from every doctor out there. I showed you links indicating that even unintended childhood trauma lingers into adulthood but you dispute showing embarrassing images could possibly be humiliating or that any parent could possible make a bad decision regarding them.
I never claimed it happened, I claimed it could be bad which is self evident to me but apparently not everyone. My hypothetical illustrated how easily innocent actions could be misconstrued, nothing more.
My only point here is that maybe taking pictures of your naked children and parading them around when their first boy/girlfriends start coming over (the thing you said it was for) maybe isn't the best idea and could be saved for a time later, when they're ready to show people. If anyone is indignant it's someone who feels their parenting skills are being questioned.
I absolutely did not say that is what it is for. I have said over and over again that I am talking about an adult child with a significant other.
If you're going to berate me, at least don't lie about what I said.
What age did you start meeting your partners parents? Gonna be any time now isn't it?
I think his point is that he's the exception and he would be very upset if he got thrown in with all the pedo's.
I agree with what you said, such a strange hill to die on. He wont accept any variation like covering just their genitals or making them off camera. Its like its very important he has baby dicks and vaginas saved on his computer and phone.
And of course since he would never hurt his own children (said every parent who inadvertently abuses their children), we shouldn't make him adhere to the rules the rest of us do.
All hail king flying squid I guess. I'm starting to realize that quantity of posts does not equal quality of character.
P.s. tell him to stop Doxxing himself so much.
Ah, so you ignored virtually every single other post I made since then where I clarified and just focused on that one. I see. Well yes, that does make it easier to make such silly criticisms, doesn't it?
Just wanted to say that I appreciate the nuanced debate here, and that neither of you resulted in insulting each other after getting to the bottom of it. More of this on Lemmy!