this post was submitted on 06 Mar 2025
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chaotic good? ladybird? the browser by devs that refuse to use your pronouns?
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814
Oh what the fuck, dev came off like a fucking ass to a minor suggestion.
People are losing their shit, calling for boycotts, and throwing around accusations of transphobia over comments in the source code and a single line of documentation? Seriously? And brigading the developer three years after the factβ½ I was ready to write off Ladybird, but damn, this was taken way out of proportion.
I'm all in for equal treatment, but people need to get a perspective. Such an extreme reaction will ultimately hurt the cause they're trying to advocate for. Getting bent out of shape and publicly brigading something for every perceived slight, every time someone's feelings are hurt, or can't get their way, will get them -- and the demographic or movement they represent -- labelled as undesirable.
I've checked out the PR, and it does look bad. But I'd like to see a justification. The comment seems blatantly transphobic/misogynistic. Seems like you're saying that my understanding is extreme. How could yours be refuted?
Brigading was clearly not justified, but as per my apparently extreme opinions, so isn't the original reply?
not sure how exactly I'm losing my shit? I posted a single link, and let people decide for themselves, if your fine with supporting sexist people then nobody is stopping you.
and personally I don't care if you think I'm hurting my cause, people who get this butthurt over some simple words and basic respect, simply are not the kind of people who I want to be around anyways.
I worded that poorly. The "you" was plural (I want the singular "thou" back) and meant to refer to the people who are losing their shit, not any one individual.
(edit) I also just want to point out that accusing me of being a sexist sympathizer and two hours later posting this shit is real funny.
I dont really want to ruin your mood but when hundreds of people are working on a project, there will be always individuals that are not so nice and go personal on others
Andrew is not just "any individual". He's one of the lead developers of Ladybird, and the co-founder of the Ladybird 501(c)(3) nonprofit.
Downvoted for stating a relevant, verifiable fact. Incredible.
A single line of documentation? How about looking into some context? Hurt feelings my ass, Andreas isn't some innocent, silly little guy who never does anything questionable.
And which cause exactly are you talking about? Because I don't know about you, but I'll stand for real, marginalized people over lines of code on a screen any day.
Thanks for sharing that linked comment. I knew there were other things that weren't as talked about, but I didn't have the energy to look into them and draft a comprehensive insight with citations.
Whenever I post such things, I get a small wave of displeased people. Rarely get thanks, though. Even if it takes a bit of effort, and I inevitably find yet more stuff. That's ok, praise obviously isn't the point.
But it demoralized me a little, how there's always downplaying. It's never enough. I can say Brendan Eich is homophobic, ideally you shouldn't support him, and someone will tell me he invented javascript, and that makes it ok (my entire point is thus null, I am overreacting).
Your thanks encourage me to uselessly annoy and present no arguments a bit longer. Thank you.
Brigading was definitely not a justified act. That was wrong and extreme, and shouldn't have been done. However, this still doesn't excuse the closing reply to the PR.
This is quite ironic, considering the first person in the PR to "lose their shit" seems to be the person who closed the issue.
This is why I hate the FOSS community. Everyone freaks out and cries wolf the second a platform doesn't share their political opinion, even if it's completely irrelevant to privacy or FOSS.
Personally, I'd want my software to value basic human decency, no matter how good the code is. If the developer lashes out at an inclusive change in a single line of documentation, I'm not using that browser even if it could solve my taxes.
This is just my take though, and if you want to use the browser, then go for it.
Where do you draw the line though? I feel like that's a slippery slope.
I'm not sure I understood; a line for what?
I'll try to answer based on what I think you meant: if there is a software with a person with undesirable views in control of it, I'd try to boycott that software if feasible.
Foss certainly aligns better with left-wing philosophies, i don't think far-right need to be widely accepted in these communities
let me provide you an analogy to what you're saying.
"The US appeals to right wing philosophies so the left doesn't need to be accepted"
what do you think?
Just like what a rightist would say. Also 2 "people" downvoting my comment is wild
Calling someone far-right for not wanting to implement a useless pronouns feature is a bit wild.
Not necessarily far right, but that implies they might be far right. i think if someone is cis female, her, if cis male then he, if other, they (unless something else is explicitly stated). I don't think it really hurts anyone to call them the way they wish, but rightists usually do
This is not about "the FOSS community". It doesn't matter if you developed closed-source or open-source, doesn't matter if you license your software with AGPL or NULA, if you make a comment that's seemingly transphobic/misogynistic, people WILL freak out.
The reason you might see this occur more frequently in open-source spaces could be sue to the fact that issue trackers and PRs provide much less filtered responses than corporate social media accounts and blogs.
Obviously the FOSS community has a heavy left wing bias. I personally haven't heard anything about Proton or Ladybird being controversial outside of Lemmy and Reddit. Clearly It's not just about transphobia and sexism (which I think is an overreaction). A lot of people in the FOSS community left Proton just because of one positive tweet about Trump (from an Asian immigrant living in Switzerland). I think it's really unhealthy for the FOSS community to jump ship the second a platform doesn't share their political opinions.
I don't think performative politics is a FOSS community problem. It's more of an whole Internet problem.
It's really bad on lemmy and reddit.
+it is basically unusable yet
Lmao, a weird choice of a hill to die on. Although, given I've seen ppl refer to a user account as "he" exactly 0 times before that, I suspect the dev may speak smth like French natively, where everything is either male or female.
That said, i'd rather use "it" instead of "they", given an account (and anon one at that) is not a person.
I'm fairly certain the main dev is swedish
Huh, checked out their noun genders, and those are quite interesting: 2 genders, but common and neuter instead of masculine and feminine. So out goes that theory
Imagine explaining gendering to a person used to ise a language where it isnβt existing π€ of course, it seems unnecessary for that person
Or have I understood that wrong?
Hungarian language for example is completly genderless. 2 pronouns are used: Ε (person, more intelligent animals), ez/az (depending on the first letter) (objects, less intelligent animals)
π€―this is awesome
Not exactly. In English, stuff that's not a person is of neutral gender, i.e. just "it" (unless the speaker has an affection towards it, then it's usually a "she"). In other languages stuff also has "genders", like "la chambre" (the French* for "a room") is a "she".
So, my initial guess was that the dev natively speaks some language, where a user is a "he", and ppl don't have a concept of a neutral gender. But in case of Swedish ~~there are 2 variants of "it" for things~~ [edit: there's "it" and "they"], so it seems incorrect.
* I'm using French instead of, for example, Russian here due to it not having a neutral gender, while Russian has "it" and something akin to "they" (like "Π·Π°Π΄ΠΈΡΠ°", the Russian for a bully). Although, I may be wrong here, since I've started learning French quite recently, and may've missed smth.
Thank you very much for explaining π I understand it now.
Old news - fix is already in production Proof
Please check your sources :)
The fact that someone else fixed the issue doesn't really excuse the absolutely unacceptable original response to a very reasonable request.
I'm much more interested in seeing an apology, or any sort of indication that the dev understands how disrespectful they were.
Foss community is so insufferable and toxic
Not always. In fact, 90% of it is mostly nice
can you be more specific about what part of the community is toxic?
Like the comment I replied to. I understand calling people out but that is such an irrelevant topic to the discussion.
It's not always sunshine and rainbows but I don't see the need to whine about every little thing.
Also note that I'm being fair here. Majority people who are not into foss simply avoid it because of how often they see people bitching about said foss products. It's just not a good look.
I mean I understand why you feel that way but if someone were to refer to me as a woman, as a cis guy I would take it as a sign of disrespect, so I feel more obliged to take the side of the people who are complaining. I feel it is somewhat relevant considering one of the projects mentioned is developed by the people in the link.