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Would Tolkien have written certain things differently if he hadn’t had misconceptions about the Catholic view of human death? (lemmy.cafe)

submitted 3 weeks ago by gipsoteco@lemmy.cafe to c/tolkien@lemmy.world

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As I'm revisiting the Professor’s works, I came across these essays: one, two, three, four, which examine—in some cases quite technically—how he understood death differently for Elves and for Men.

One thing that particularly struck me is that, when it came to Men, Tolkien never assigned them a view of mortality that was fully consistent with the theological perspective of Catholicism, and this had a certain impact, for example, in Athrabeth.

I’m curious about how, for example, that text might have differed if Tolkien had realized he wasn’t aligned with Catholic theology: as can be seen from the essays I mentioned earlier, Elvish and human mortality would have been exactly mirror images of one another.

IMPORTANT: I really wanted to put in the post some actual info about the 'misconception', but unfortunately it's a quite technical theological issue, and English isn't my first language, so it would be very difficult for me to summarize it in brief; I warmly invite you to have a look at the essays I linked.

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[–] stat_rosa@lemy.nl 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Not really answering your question but your post got me thinking. Is there a person in the bible who is immortal like the Elves? And God and Jesus do not count. So I found these three on the internet:

Enoch: In the genealogies of Genesis, everyone's story ends with "...and he died." Enoch is the sole exception. Genesis 5:24 states: "Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." The New Testament confirms this in Hebrews 11:5, stating he was taken "so that he did not experience death."

Elijah: The fiery Old Testament prophet did not die a natural death. Instead, while walking with his successor Elisha, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated them, and Elijah "went up to heaven in a whirlwind" (2 Kings 2:11).

Melchizedek: He is a mysterious king and priest who briefly meets Abraham in Genesis 14. In the New Testament, Hebrews 7:3 describes him in highly unusual terms: "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever." A bit like Tom Bombadil.

Or should we see Elves like Angles on Earth?

[–] gipsoteco@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That’s a very interesting point, thank you. I remembered the ‘ascension to heaven’ of the prophet Elijah, and also the ‘disappearance’ of Enoch, but I had completely forgotten about the things attributed to Melchizedek. And let’s not forget that Tolkien was a Catholic, and so he certainly had Mary in mind as well; according to Catholic tradition, she did not die but was assumed into heaven in body and soul, as is supposed to have happened to human beings if there been no sin. There is, however, a difference compared with the cases in Jewish and Christian tradition: the Elves would have been immortal within the physical world in any case, whereas Enoch, Elijah and Mary did not die but left the world.

If any comparison with angels is to be made, I would rather think of the Ainur, especially those that entered the world (Valar, Maiar, etc.), since Elves are seen as normal physical beings, or at least "enhanced humans" if we can say!

[–] stat_rosa@lemy.nl 1 points 1 week ago

Totally forgot that Enoch was taken by God. And I agree with you that the Ainur are more like angels.