Postimo

joined 3 months ago
[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

That's valid, we might have under utilized rituals in replacing much of what I felt was lost in vancian casting. I still feel the homogenization of powers, while very sensible from a mechanical standpoint, stood out to me as very video game.

I can see you're point in spell slots use for environmental vs combat, I think that was part of what I found interesting in caster classes in 3.5, and later pf1.

I get that there is a lot of intelligent design in 4e, and I think on a mechanical level it makes a ton of sense, but I think ultimately it comes down to rules vs rulings mentality to the game. I would say it was very much on the side of rules, and for many players that felt much more like the MMOs they knew than a TTRPG.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

I haven't played much 5e, I was comparing it more to 3.5, I am pulling from loose memory and the spotty options that exist online (due to the game system license which honestly didn't help 4e's case), but if this source is to be trusted for the things that have been made creative commons, it shows the charm person power. It's an encounter power with the standardized to hit mechanics the effect is:

The target gains vulnerability to charm and illusion effects from you and your allies, and suffers a -5 penalty to their Will and Sense defenses until they snap out of it.

Compaired to 3.5's from here:

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

This is obviously only one example, and a particularity egregious one at that, but speaks to the sorts of differences I saw in what 4e was trying to do, and what 3.5 was doing. I don't think it's fair to attribute the dissatisfaction specifically to grognards, when these are very clearly different kinds of systems, and the goals of 4e are much more video game like in having controlled variances and results, rather than the freer form of 'rulings not rules' intended games.

If that's not your style than, rock on, but I feel like the counter culture revival of 4e does gloss over the fact that is really was a pretty drastic shift in what DnD was, and it was disliked authentically for the very different and opinionated choices it made, not just online backlash.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 days ago (5 children)

My point wasn't to strongly stand against any of the choices 4e made, more to give my remembering of the zeitgeist at the time. Like the marked stuff, there is validity in the mechanic, but I distinctly remember describing to friends as we got into 4e, "its like aggro from wow"

Linear vs quadratic is worth solving, but my issue is more in how they solved it. Distilling everything down to powers felt to me like a cop-out and ruined a lot of what I liked about the versatility of magic in 3.5, and again felt very similar to MMOs.

Skill challenges were pretty cool, if I recall. That was a non-combat system that I don’t believe was in 3e. I often see people accidentally reinventing them in 5e, because they want some sort of system for non-combat challenges.

Skill challenges are cool, and are a decent example of basic out of combat design, but more what I felt was stripped was the interesting non-combat use of magic for problem solving. The rituals felt very limited and not as integrated into the identity of the system of classes, and all the powers came with an implied "no bag of rats" qualifier, so they couldn't be used out of combat for solutions.

I think in the end all of these speak to very different play styles and what we were looking for from the systems. If you enjoy very predicable rules and well balanced and polished mechanics, especially for a largely combat focused campaign, 4e is probably solid for your needs.

On the other side of that though, DnD felt extraordinary to me because interfacing with a human meant that interesting puzzle solving, or creative use of spells allowed for emergent game play in unique ways. Obviously there is still a person on the other side of the screen in 4e, but it felt that many of the mechanics were structured in ways that didn't lend to the looser play style I, and I assume many other 3.5 players, liked in our DnD games.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 8 points 3 days ago (15 children)

I'm going to push back on this. I was not super online at that age, but I did play WoW, and I specifically remember feeling like it was playing into the WoW mania of the day. The aggro mechanic, while not literally taunt, was clearly made to function like a taunt. The codification of roles felt similar to the tank/DPS/healer with CC being moved to a role. The way abilities between martials and caster were unified bled the line between magic and ability in ways that felt similar to MMOs.

More than anything for me was that it felt like the system was only for combat in a way that 3.5 didn't. Obviously DnD in any edition has been a combat focused system, but the way it was systematized in 4e was a drastic step away from the rulings not rules mindset that makes TTRPGs feel more alive than video games. With that flexibility stripped on the systems level, it felt like playing a video game with your friends, and the analog for that at the time was MMOs.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 week ago

Pardon my mistype, if you find yourself between* democrats and republicans.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

If in the currently political climate, you find yourself between democrats and republicans, you're at the very best ignorant and lost. If you the type to fall for trump, you're an idiot. I guess pick your problems.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

Peak centrist to beg the question about ""BoTh SiDeS"" just after saying they would fall for the 'charms' of a dipshit demented rapist.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I’d be ok with that

Health Insurance companies wouldn't :\

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 33 points 1 week ago

That's the neat part.

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The quest runs on a variant of Android correct? Like everything else that isn't desktop, Linux is already the industry stander in facetop computing 😎

[–] Postimo@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Well I don't speak British do I??

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